Miscarriage can be ordinary...In My Defence

[moodyzebra]

Don't want to hijack Sausagedog's thread , but had a lot to say in response.

1. Don't know where Aloha got her stats from, when she said that to talk of 25% of pregnancies ending in m/c was "unnecessarily frightening".

Admittedly, the only controlled study I can find found that 22% ended before or when they would have barely been clinically detectable, 31% total ended in m/c.

But women's health says that "about 25%" of pregnancies will miscarry after a pregnancy has been diagnosed.

Maternity center.com reckons 15%-20%, but the fact that they are rarely spoken of will often leave the "victim feeling isolated and alone".

2. We are all shaped by our own experiences. My mother had 2 notable m/c (she probably had more, but she lost track). The ones she remembered when she was 17yo (presumably this makes her 1 in a million according to Aloha's source) and age 30. They were life-changing events, though. She got married at 17 as as a result, then miscarried funny enough, marriage didn't last. The one at 30 was only partial and gangrene set into her womb because she had had so many m/c she didn't even bother to see a doctor. She went into operating theatre not knowing if they she would wake up again. She always spoke of this experience in glowing terms she had to suddenly and totally reconcile herself and her life to what it had been. It was life-altering and wonderful for her. The fact that it was instigated by a m/c was almost incidental. This is what I heard growing up, m/c was definitely no big deal in itself.

3. Not saying that women, esp. if you have tried hard to make a baby, shouldn't sometimes find it a "terrible loss to bear". But by no means is it that way always. I have spoken to several women who were annoyed that friends treated them like eggshells that might snap if their m/c was discussed, when all my friends wanted to do was talk a little about it, and not necessarily in terms that implied that they were supposed to be deeply upset by it all.

Also, there's often a big difference between m/c when it's planned vs. unplanned pregnancy. My mom never did planned pregnancy, for instance. I think boards like MN are over-represented with the planned... DH, me, all our brothers, both our mom's, my dad, my niece and nephew, my 1st 2 children -- all 'accidents'; unplanned is very much the norm in our personal history. I don't think Sausagedog was planning this pregnancy, either, frankly. Although she's entitled to hope it succeeds after all, anyway... but if we assume that m/c is usually a deep emotional trauma, we create less room for women to have other types of reactions that they still need to deal with.

MZ - Your points are all fair enough. But did you really have to put that as the first post to woman quite clearly excited about being pregnant again and already thinking about the birth?

The point is you went straight in with that comment without:

1. Knowing whether she had had lost a baby before and been devastated about it.

2. Knowing whether she was happy about being pregnant.

I don't know much about the stats and I have had a miscarriage when I was 16, I didn't know I was pregnant, and it didn't particularly traumatise me..... but I STILL wouldn't come out with a comment like that to someone 1st telling me they were pregnant. Anyway you look at it it was insensitive and tactless.

To be honest if someone had said to me what you posted I think I would have had to walk away to prevent me from slapping them.

If you think we shouldn't assume that it's a deep emotional trauma, then we equally shouldn't assume that it isn't!

Sorry I am sitting here crying at the moment at your audacity that it would be best to treat women as thuogh miscarraige was not such a deep emotional trauma as not to offend the ones that didn't look at it like this, I have never met anyone who had a miscarraige and did not see it as a devastating experience whether it was planned or unplanned and if these women are strong enough to look at it in any other way then surely they are strong enough to correct the person who treats them as though they are devastated and say actually I think it was for the best or it wasn't planned or whatever reason they don't feel as terribly agrieved as some.

I do think that a sympathetic attitude should be taken regardless and maybe your friends attitudes were a different way of coping with their loss in terms of getting angry with other people.

Just read the thread started by Sausagedog. I am gobsmacked at the response by MZ. I have struggled through the first 12 wks of this pregnancy after having miscarried my 2 previous ones. I, like most pregnant women, am well aware of the risk of miscarriage but I wouldnt want to be reminded of it when announcing my news. I cant beleive how thoughtless some people are.

Zebra - we have had quite a lot of contact with each other in the past, especially to do with education.

I am very upset today - my sister discovered her baby had no heartbeat yesterday at her 12 week scan. As we speak she is in hosiptal having her baby removed.

True, different people have different ways of reacting to a miscarriage. The baby I miscarried in October would have been due tomorrow. There has barely been a day in the last six months when I haven't thought about the miscarriage, often to the point of tears. In the absence of any other information about a person, I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that m/c is a deep emotional trauma.

In contrast to Twinkie, I have met several women who have had miscarriages and not been overly upset. One was my Mum, who lost her first, she was newly married and didn't want to have kids so soon.

In general I think many of us are not realistic about the chances of successful pregnancy. People jump around all excited when they discover they are 4 weeks pregnant, go out and pick all the nursery gear etc, and then are devestated when they lose it at 7 weeks.

In both my pregnancies I was very aware that I may well lose it before 12 weeks. I was lucky - I didn't (thankfully didn't have to go through that morning sickness for nothing).

I have known people who had late miscarriages and in their cases they were understandably very upset. I also have a friend who has just lost her first to an ectopic - again understandably traumatic.

If you have problems getting pregnant or staying pregnant then miscarriage can be heartbreaking. But for most normal healthy women it should be viewed as a fact of nature and better luck next time.

I agree with zebra that if we were more open about it then maybe less people would be devestated when it happens to them.

However, maybe zebra could have put it more tactfully - but probably she was writing in a hurry like the rest of us !

Zebra - not had time to read all of your post but did see the one on sausagedog's thread.

Have YOU suffered a miscarry? I know you say you mum did but really this is NOT the same as going through it yourself.

Yes, some people deal with mc in different ways, and to some people it may not affect them at all.

However, mc can be awful for many many people. It isn;t just the loss of a baby, often much wanted and already loved. It is the loss of hopes and dreams, the end of a wonderful experience. It is harrowing, upsetting, hormonal, devasting at times. Unlwess you have gone through that I don't see how you can judge what is right or wrong.

And to be frank, if you have just had a mc, or maybe worried about one, the LAST thing you need is someone spouting out statistics. Who cares if is happens to 20 odd percent of woman? Do you think that really makes it feel any better?

I also think that when someone tells you they are pregnant, it should NOT be the first response to say don't worry, it might not even live (which although aren't your words , they have the same meaning). I just think it is crass, insensitive and misplaced. Okay, you are free to feel that way but I personally feel that in these circumstances you should keep such thoughts to yourself.

"In general I think many of us are not realistic about the chances of successful pregnancy. People jump around all excited when they discover they are 4 weeks pregnant, go out and pick all the nursery gear etc, and then are devestated when they lose it at 7 weeks."

Sorry I don't agree. Many people at early stages are aware of the risks and don't go out buying to be honest. BUT they do have hopes and dreams for that little sac growing inside them. If you have planned and tried to get pg for over a year, that positive line on a test is the start of what you plan is a wonderful adventure. I lost my baby at 7 weeks. I had been ttc for 15 or 16 months. I was scared that it would go wrong but I didn't know anyone close to be who had really had a mc, so had no rerason to think I would. When it happened I didn't really know how to react. I was given statistics but they meant nothing. This was MY baby. And MY baby was dead. And the reason why I felt so bad is that I was told it is normal and felt like I wasn't allowed to grieve about it. THAT, in my experience is not good.

Throckenholt - I could be one of those people that you've met who have had a miscarriage and haven't been very upset - in public of course. Would you prefer we went around wailing? Folk don't always show their feelings. Unless you've had a miscarriage yourself ypu aint in a position to comment.

Throckenholt - I agree with most of the points you made, but I don't think the issue should really be whether some women are devastated by miscarriage or not, but more to do with the fact that Sausagedog in her thread did not mention miscarriage.... didn't ask for advice on it.... and certainly didn't need her 1st post on MN met with such negativity!

She only asked for advice on what arrangements could be made for her toddler when the time came to give birth.

I still can't fathom why the issue about miscarrying would be the 1st thought to pop into someones head when reading that post.

This thread is very upsetting for me. At this very moment, my little sister is in the operating theatre having her baby taken away.

If I feel so dreadful, god knows how she and her partner are feeling.

Not an emotional trauma, hey.

Hmmm

I agree - it is devestating for many people. However, what I was saying is that it might not be so devestating for so many if more people were open about it - so that more people realised that it can and does happen frequently. I am sure most of us have friends who have had miscarriages and never told us - it is almost a taboo subject.

The bottom line most of us forget when we build up all our hopes and dreams around that little positive line on the test, is that a significant proportion of those conceptions just are not capable of becoming a baby. By building up our hopes we are setting ourselves up for a distress when (if) it fails.

My cousin also lost her baby at 12 weeks (no heartbeat on scan - unfortunately not uncommmon) -
she was upset, but it hasn't blighted her life, and hasn't stopped her going on to have children (2nd due next month).

We seem to have blinkered ourselves that 21st century life means we don't have to face these problems. Miscarriage has always been a fact of life - sometimes traumatic, sometimes not so traumatic.

I think it is very sad when people get hooked on what "might have been" (eg their angel lost at 8 weeks) - rather than accepting that that particular one was never going to be, and the baby at the end of it was just your imagination. (Now retiring gracefully before I get flamed to death).

Dying is ordinary too - but I wouldn't want it to happen to me tomorrow!

I think we are all aware that pregancies can end in miscarriage, but most people (where a pregnancy is wanted) hope that it won't happen to them. Because of this they don't like the facts being pushed under their nose. Which TBH I can understand.

I think at the end of the day we all own our own emotions hence we may all act differently to different issues. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't still support people to deal with things the way they choose to.

Just caught up with all of these threads, and can't quite believe Zebra's first post to sausage dog either. Luckily Sausage dog desn't appear to be too upset by this harsh comment. If Zebra had said that to me I'd be devastated.

As far as I'm concerned it is not the done thing to mention the prospect of miscarriage to a woman who is newly pregnant.

Words fail me.

The very sad thing is that I was going to introduce my sister to Mumsnet but now feel unable to

Popsycal, my deepest sympathies to your sister and you and your family, thinking of you all.

Zebra, I can see that your Mum's experiences with m/cs has had a major influence on how you view this, just wondering (as Hulababy asked) if you had had a personal experience and how you dealt with it if you did?

For myself, after 2 years of trying for baby no. 2 and m/c-ing at 8 weeks, there was no-one in my family who had been through the same, and after a healthy first pregnancy it was quite a shock to lose my baby, and a further 2 years down the line I'm still waiting for that second chance.

I agree with you about 'treading on eggshells', yes, sometimes people need to talk, but in all cases, sensitivity is the key, and we should let the other person take the lead before saying something that could cause a whole lot of damage.

Hang on a minute, dying is a fct of life. We all die, but if someone was worrying about a job interview next week, would it be acceptable to say 'Don't worry just yet, you might get hit by a bus before then'

Extreme I know, but what's the difference?

I'm 13 weeks at the moment and my baby is not my imagination thank you very much it is a baby and it is very much wanted and loved even though it was not planned.

Funny that people tend to take this sort of tact with miscarraige there would be an uproar if we started saying - well cancers commona ndd you know its gonna happen to one in 3 so I'm not going to get all upset for you - you shuld have realised it would happen and as for death - come on girls pull yourself together that at least is going to happen to all of us.

I think many people here have lost sight of the original issue here!! Sausagedog and her query about going into labour whilst having noone to look after her toddler???

Although I think that Zebras post was insensitive and misplaced I don't think that this should deteriorate into an argument about how upset individuals get when they miscarry.

Surely the original point was to make Zebra see (and now Throckenholt too) that it really isn't the 1st thing you should point out to someone when they say they are pregnant.... whether miscarriage is a common and natural occurance or not. Of course we should talk about it if someone who's had a miscarriage wants to.

But I MUST emphasise again that Sausagedog did NOT ask anything about a miscarrying.... or even hint that she wanted advice about miscarriage.

Popsycal and all those effected terribly by miscarriage... please don't read this thread as a dismissal of how terrible it can be for you... but more as a tactlessly placed comment that seems to have sparked off a rather heated debate.

Z, in reference to your 'miscarrying an unplanned pregnancy is no big deal' (paraphrasing here, but that's the general gist of your rather sweeping statement). I would like to say that it is a big deal ! Very few women who miscarry early can shrug their shoulders and say "Oh well." Reagardless of whether it was a 'planned' preg or not.

I have very recently miscarried a pregnancy which I was unaware of and though I do not pine for the child I lost, (although I am upset by it) and I wouldn't choose to have the pregnancy restored to me, I am still affected by it. If anything, the fact that I was not ttc makes my feelings more complicated to deal with. I feel like a fraud for feeling the need to grieve for a preg that ended before I even knew it had begun when I didn't even want it (that is simplifying things somewhat as an 'accidental preg would still have been kept and loved etc). Like it isn't my right.

Z, your implication of unplanned preg m/c being almost everyday and generally un-upsetting, only goes further to reinforce those confused feelings I have, so thanks for that

SOME of what you said is valid, in that not every miscarriage creates a wailing depressed mess in it's wake but to imply that it is, in essence, water off a ducks back in many cases is just absurd. I'll stop now before I say something I'll regret.

People handle things in different ways, there is no formula to grief. It is obscene to ever put anyone in a box of how they should be feeling. I agree with that in all aspects of society. There are too many people around for my liking that expect or demand you behave in a certain way at a certain time. Of course there are people who say they are uneffected by miscarriage, good for them, thats fantastic. Surely though in the same instance there are people who never get over it. I never told anyone about my two pregnancies until 3 months, i knew the risks, still doesn't mean i hadn't bonded. My heart always has and will rule my head. I know for some people this isn't the case. Neither is right or wrong.

I agree that this debate has no place on sausagedog's thread and the subject bears little or no relation to it, toothy, but the fact is that z has started a thread which invites debate re the effect of miscarriage. Therefore, it is unsuprising that we have posted our experiences and/or own personal view on the matter.

Throckenholt I find your comments quite distressing - but maybe it's cause I'm in early pregnancy and all those hormones are wooshing around my brain - now that's a fact. I'm pregnant - fact. I might lose it - that's a risk but not one I'm going to dwell on overly - cos the stress could cause me to m/c again.

I'm lucky enough never to have miscarried, but I have friends who have had experiences at both ends of the spectrum - one miscarried mid-way through her pregnancy after an amnio and was absolutely devastated, understandably imo. the other had an early (7 wks or so) one and felt completely ok, not even sad about it (she's v open and honest and said she never felt v pregnant that time anyway. agree with fairyfly, it's different for everyone and it's up to the rest of us to be sensitive to the needs of the women affected, whatever they may be.

This thread is worrying me because it is clearly causing a lot of hurt - the pain is tangible. This is not what Mumsnet is about surely. Bereavement is THE most emotive subject going.

My rule of thumb is any thing I say on Mumsnet, I could say to that person face to face over a coffee. This is beyond that, because there are people here who would be visibly very distressed.