Miscarriage can be ordinary...In My Defence

[moodyzebra]

Don't want to hijack Sausagedog's thread , but had a lot to say in response.

1. Don't know where Aloha got her stats from, when she said that to talk of 25% of pregnancies ending in m/c was "unnecessarily frightening".

Admittedly, the only controlled study I can find found that 22% ended before or when they would have barely been clinically detectable, 31% total ended in m/c.

But women's health says that "about 25%" of pregnancies will miscarry after a pregnancy has been diagnosed.

Maternity center.com reckons 15%-20%, but the fact that they are rarely spoken of will often leave the "victim feeling isolated and alone".

2. We are all shaped by our own experiences. My mother had 2 notable m/c (she probably had more, but she lost track). The ones she remembered when she was 17yo (presumably this makes her 1 in a million according to Aloha's source) and age 30. They were life-changing events, though. She got married at 17 as as a result, then miscarried funny enough, marriage didn't last. The one at 30 was only partial and gangrene set into her womb because she had had so many m/c she didn't even bother to see a doctor. She went into operating theatre not knowing if they she would wake up again. She always spoke of this experience in glowing terms she had to suddenly and totally reconcile herself and her life to what it had been. It was life-altering and wonderful for her. The fact that it was instigated by a m/c was almost incidental. This is what I heard growing up, m/c was definitely no big deal in itself.

3. Not saying that women, esp. if you have tried hard to make a baby, shouldn't sometimes find it a "terrible loss to bear". But by no means is it that way always. I have spoken to several women who were annoyed that friends treated them like eggshells that might snap if their m/c was discussed, when all my friends wanted to do was talk a little about it, and not necessarily in terms that implied that they were supposed to be deeply upset by it all.

Also, there's often a big difference between m/c when it's planned vs. unplanned pregnancy. My mom never did planned pregnancy, for instance. I think boards like MN are over-represented with the planned... DH, me, all our brothers, both our mom's, my dad, my niece and nephew, my 1st 2 children -- all 'accidents'; unplanned is very much the norm in our personal history. I don't think Sausagedog was planning this pregnancy, either, frankly. Although she's entitled to hope it succeeds after all, anyway... but if we assume that m/c is usually a deep emotional trauma, we create less room for women to have other types of reactions that they still need to deal with.

I didn't want to drag this hideous thread up again, but I just wanted to say that I'm sorry for your loss, melliek. Big hugs. x

I echo WSM's regards, melliek

I still feel upset about a miscarriage my Mum had nearly 20 years ago. The circumstances were very upsetting which I dont really want to go into but it was very traumatic. MC is devastating for most people and should not be underestimated as it is IMO the death of a child.

Where is GrumpyZebra now?? Come out, come out, wherever you are!!

My mum had 2 miscarriages but her generation didn't seem to discuss these things as openly as we may do - it was just seen as one of those things iyswim and you got on with it, which is my attitude to life in general tbh, bad things happen but after grieving you really do need to try and get on with living. I don't think we should all be jumping down Zebra's throat for raising an emotive subject, although I do agree that the post on Sausagedogs thread could have been slightly better phrased.

I haven't had any miscarriages however but several of my friends have at various stages and have all wept and then dusted themselves down and got on with things, people do react differently and not everyone needs treating with kid gloves.

I had a feeling this was coming.
I oly read GZ's response as I was skimming the threads at the time and I was a little alarmed at what she put, but I presumed she knew Sausagedog well enough and her history/circumstances. It would appear not.

I had a mc and it felt like the end of the world. I heard the statistics at the time of the event and they were mildy comforting in so much as I wan't the only one but did nothing to allieviate the grieving.

I feel some of us who know the GZ thrives on statistics, which have given us all a good laugh and started some interesting discussions on previous threads, were still slightly shocked that she should post something so cool on such an emmotive topic

OO - I don't think it could've been better phrased.... I think it was completely wrongly mentioned in the first place! What was the relevance of it in answering Sausagedogs question??

I think raising emotive subjects is an absolute must. These things are part of life and I do enjoy a healthy debate from time to time.

So I agree that nobody should jump down her throat for raising the subject on a separate thread. Just not in defence of the comment on the 'other' thread though.

Hi, I'm new to mumsnet so hello everyone!
I have a history of recurrent miscarriage myself the latest one ten days ago at 7 weeks so I know what melliek is going thru. After the third miscarriage you can request investigations for recurrent micarriage which only involve blood being taken. Your partner has to give blood also to check his genetic makeup. It's well worth having these - my investigations were all clear and I went on to having my DD 18 mons ago.I guess some of us are just unlucky where miscarriges are concerned.

hello, kawa

As others have asked - where is GZ now and has she PERSONALLY had a miscarriage? I've had four and i really do not feel anyone can know what it is really like with personal experience. I too am horrified by this distressing thread.

I had a m/c at 7wks between ds1&2. It was upsetting at the time, esp as I wasn't officially pg. (In those days, you had to miss two periods before your GP would do a test.) But after the initial disappointment I just felt like it was something that wasn't meant to be and put it behind me. I hadn't started making plans and only dh knew I was pg as I don't like telling people until I'm about 10 or 12wks gone. It didn't occur to me to work out when the baby would have been due or anything like that. Tbh, when people talk of angels and so on, I find that upsetting, as though I am being judged and found wanting in some respect. Yet to me, if I hadn't had the m/c I wouldn't have had ds2 2.75yrs later and I can't imagine being without him. As with OO's family, there seems to be a phlegmatic streak running in mine. My niece lost a baby girl at 22wks last year but has coped admirably and in fact gave birth to a healthy little boy on Tuesday.

To my mind your responce to the news that someone has lost a baby is very different if you have had a mc yourself.

I had a mc at 12 weeks and was utterly devistated. I was also left infertile by the experience and needed surgery and hormone treatment before, thank god, I had my children.

I felt the most awful loss, and I also felt the most profound sense of failure, even though I knew that I had done something wrong.

Added to all of this I was deeply insulted by the prevelent attitude that it was something I had to keep searet (all that stuff about not telling anyone for the first trimester, just in case). Why? so that other people didn't have to recognise my grief and loss? To make other people feel better?

The doctor who told me I had probably miscarried said, 'I wount bother giving you a booking in date, as you many well lose it. It is very common you know.' Patronising ,insensitive arsehole! Death is F-ing well universal, but that doesn't stop people having a little sympathy.

Fine if people want to deal with it in private, ok, whatever it take is good. But I felt that I had to down play what had happened to me to save the feelings of others.

Thank god my dd was born 2 year to the day to my mc, so it is now a happy day.

My Mother lost a baby and it horrified her for decades.

My greatest love and sympathy to you Popsycal and your SIL.

when i became preganat with DD2 i phoned to make an appointment with the midwife as i had seen signs in the surgery advising me to do so. Because I had had "complications", lets say, in my first pregnancy my community midwife said she would prefer me to be under a consultant in the hospital - the hospital "REFUSED" to see me until I had passed 13 weeks because I quote "it would be a waste of time if you miscarried before then!" - Gobsmacked was my reaction
Offthread slightly but wanted to make the point that this attitude is quite common in the NHS - NOT THAT I AGREE WITH IT she shouts into cyberworld.

Just caught up with this.
To add my bit -

First - Z - don't think it was nice to bring up the subject in the first place to be honest mate. I don't think the subject should be taboo and it's fine to discuss how it affects us all differently. However the poor woman has just found out she is expecting and was asking about what to do with her other baby etc, just being giddy excited. I found out I was carrying when I was 4 months gone, how do you now how far gone she is, what her sutuation is and it really wasn't necessery to mention miscarriage to a young woman who has just shared some lovley news with us. It was a strange thing to throw in my opinion.

However on the subject of miscarriages - no they shouldn't be taboo, and I had 2 before Lottie. Luckily I had them very early and while I cried while it happened to me I didn't grieve and just thought to myself 'hey, it happens'. I'm glad I was able to feel that way at that time. That's not to say I didn't cry at Only Fools & Horses the other day when Xsandra had a misscarriage!!!

I'm hesitating to post because this thread has clearly upset so many people, but I have to say that although I agree your post was a bit insenstive zebra, this reaction is pretty extreme. There are people who have posted over and over again about how wrong they think zebra is. It doesn't make pleasant reading. Yes, I've had a miscarriage of a much-wanted baby, yes, I was terribly upset, but I don't have a single RL friend with children who hasn't also had at least one miscarriage. People all deal with things in different ways- I've been very struck by how many people have said they wanted to be listened to when they miscarried, and allowed to talk. It was the last thing wanted to be honest. Oh hell, I don't know what I'm saying really, but I do hate this kind of haranguing.

I think you put it very well tamum, I didn't want to comment on the subject myself as it isn't something I have personally experienced. However, I have via numuerous friends and each individual has dealt with it in their unique way.

I think I understand what GZ was trying to say, although it did seem to come across at the wrong time and place. It is a very emotive subject as some have said but we all have our own little corner on Mumsnet and should allow each other that space - even if it is different to our own.

I'll add my support to Libb and tamum.

Last June I had a miscarriage of what was an although unplanned, a much wanted (by me, but not dh) baby. While I was upset by the loss of the baby, I wasn't upset by the miscarriage per se, if you see what I mean? I knew that a high proportion of pregnancies end in miscarriage, and I was able to take a quite pragmatic view that it was probably for the best - that my body had decided that there was something wrong and therefore ending it (quite likely given my age, 42 at the time).

My upset at the time (and ongoing) was more to do with issues with my dh and a fear that I might never have a chance to try again.

Thomcat - Your post fantastically sums up the issues I had with Zebra's original post.

Tamum - I think a lot of posters may have reacted to this thread alone before knowing about the post on the Sausagedog thread. Perhaps that might account for a lot of the extreme reactions.

just adding my thoughts to this thread, everyone to their own seems to spring to my mind..

Whether the m/c was planned/ unplanned, week 3 or whatever it is something that is upsetting to women (and their dh/dp's just as much)...I took a pregnancy test on the advice of my doctor, it came up positive, I was pregnant and I didn't even know about it..I have miscarried it and dh and I have been very upset by it, we will get over it but my point is I was only a couple of weeks but the emotions are there, it should be talked about and people given chance to grieve/cry as much or as little as they want...(it is quite normal yes but stastitics aren't a nice way to make people feel better)

Posting this in the hope of not offending anyone. But just because I think my reaction to the m/c I had was perhaps unusual.

I wasn't upset about losing a baby because I didn't feel as if I had (sorry I just didn't). The m/c was my 2nd pregnancy, unplanned and very early (7 weeks). I think had it been 1st pregnancy or planned or a few weeks later I would have felt differently. It was also complicated as a suspected ectopic- so by the time they confirmed it wasn't I was actually quite relieved it was "just" a m/c.

What I did find difficult was people's reactions - some were fairly awful. I felt a bit of a twinge around due date but by then I was in mid pregnancy with ds2.

I know I'm not the only one who has felt like this though- as a friend rang me recently to say "bloody hell I had a m/c- thank god" in just about the same sentence.

I do think the trauma or lack of will depend on individual circumstances. I didn't think that zebras original comments were really out of order as I posted on that thread- partly becuase it was very relevant to me at the time- if you are worrying about the birth it can be worth thinking you don't need to worry about it yet (as I did with this pregnancy- my initial reaction was an absolute panic attack about the birth and I did find it helpful to think that I might never have to worry about it). A few weeks down the line I don'\t feel like that anymore but at that time zebra's comments would have been helpful to me. However when I saw them I did think they might draw a bit of a storm of protest.

I had an early m/c last Sept, I was a bit upset but then it was over, I know I already had 2 children, perhaps that helped as I am and was sure I would conceive again for our 3rd child.
Still haven't though...
I do feel for people who really struggle to get pregnant and then live through heartbreak after heartbreak... I know I am blessed...

Appreciate that people need / want to have their say, but did this HAVE to be dragged up again ?

I'd not seen this thread before as it happens...
Sorry if my opinion was not wanted...

sorry - was just about to post to say I hadn't noticed the date, and apologise for starting it again.

Also hadn't read through it all until after posting so didn't realise quite how upsetting it had got.

Piffle (and JimJams), it is not a case of your opinion not being wanted. More the fact that this thread was incredibly upsetting for mannnnny mumsnetters who felt very differently to zebra.

Of course we are all entitled to have our say, free speech and all that, but this is/was a hugely sensitive/volatile thread and I just wanted to make any further posters aware of that, just in case, like Jimjams they hadn't read all through the thread. God knows these things get so long sometimes that by the time you've read it all, you've forgotten your own opinion ! Apologies if my post was a little brusque, reading it back I see that it was slightly knee jerk.