Miscarriage can be ordinary...In My Defence

[moodyzebra]

Don't want to hijack Sausagedog's thread , but had a lot to say in response.

1. Don't know where Aloha got her stats from, when she said that to talk of 25% of pregnancies ending in m/c was "unnecessarily frightening".

Admittedly, the only controlled study I can find found that 22% ended before or when they would have barely been clinically detectable, 31% total ended in m/c.

But women's health says that "about 25%" of pregnancies will miscarry after a pregnancy has been diagnosed.

Maternity center.com reckons 15%-20%, but the fact that they are rarely spoken of will often leave the "victim feeling isolated and alone".

2. We are all shaped by our own experiences. My mother had 2 notable m/c (she probably had more, but she lost track). The ones she remembered when she was 17yo (presumably this makes her 1 in a million according to Aloha's source) and age 30. They were life-changing events, though. She got married at 17 as as a result, then miscarried funny enough, marriage didn't last. The one at 30 was only partial and gangrene set into her womb because she had had so many m/c she didn't even bother to see a doctor. She went into operating theatre not knowing if they she would wake up again. She always spoke of this experience in glowing terms she had to suddenly and totally reconcile herself and her life to what it had been. It was life-altering and wonderful for her. The fact that it was instigated by a m/c was almost incidental. This is what I heard growing up, m/c was definitely no big deal in itself.

3. Not saying that women, esp. if you have tried hard to make a baby, shouldn't sometimes find it a "terrible loss to bear". But by no means is it that way always. I have spoken to several women who were annoyed that friends treated them like eggshells that might snap if their m/c was discussed, when all my friends wanted to do was talk a little about it, and not necessarily in terms that implied that they were supposed to be deeply upset by it all.

Also, there's often a big difference between m/c when it's planned vs. unplanned pregnancy. My mom never did planned pregnancy, for instance. I think boards like MN are over-represented with the planned... DH, me, all our brothers, both our mom's, my dad, my niece and nephew, my 1st 2 children -- all 'accidents'; unplanned is very much the norm in our personal history. I don't think Sausagedog was planning this pregnancy, either, frankly. Although she's entitled to hope it succeeds after all, anyway... but if we assume that m/c is usually a deep emotional trauma, we create less room for women to have other types of reactions that they still need to deal with.

Northerner - extreme, but a good point and I agree.

Let's put it another way, if I had just been accepted into Uni and I was looking for advice on jobs to apply for when I graduated, would it be okay for someone to say to me:

"Don't worry about that yet, you'll probably fail"

NO I don't think anybody would say that..... coz it's tactless, misplaced and not helpful! So why is it not tactless to say what Zebra said.

I don't know if I should be joining this, but here goes.

I've had 2 m/cs, one very very early, the day after a positive test. The other also early - just 10 & half weeks - but a gruelling experience of two weeks of excruciating cramps and bleeding and scans and "just hang on, it might still be ok, just wait and see" before a final well, yes, there was a heartbeat but now there isn't.

The thing I wanted to say is: those experiences weren't in themselves deep emotional trauma for me. They were nasty physically, and I've always been sorry for the babies-that-might-have-been in the way one is sorry for other people who have been through something which was horrible for them as individuals; but for me personally my feeling was something along the lines of these just weren't meant to be.

However, that isn't to say that the people who did treat me with extra sympathy were unwelcome - not at all, I really appreciated their concern - it just made me feel a weeny bit of a fraud, oh and perhaps somehow a bit lacking in that I wasn't devastated? So what I am trying to say is:

• for those "on the outside", presuming great sadness is the right first approach, but don't be surprised if it doesn't turn out to be that; and

• to those on the inside who aren't devastated, you're not alone and you're not weird.

And just as a final aside, I do realise that if my pregnancies hadn't been going so patently wrong I might have felt differently. I do think I'd have had very different feelings if it'd been swimming along and then suddenly lost for no reason. So obviously exact circumstances count ... and in fact, looking back, if I wanted to talk about anything it was always the "facts".

WSM - You're right, this is a different thread now. I wasn't meaning that you shouldn't post how you feel.... I was only trying to calm the situation down and return to subject to a less upsetting topic.

Toothache - your analogy is better than mine!

I agree with WSM, Sauasage dog was merely asking for advice, not a debate on miscarriage. BUT as WSM says Zebra started this thread with debate in mind. Just the title of this thread makes me shudder. I'm sure many people on tht TTC thraed would never consider miscarriage 'ordinary'.

I know toothy, I know

Perhaps it's best to let this thread fizzle now ? I think it has been established that most people disagree with what mz has said, sleeping dogs lie...

Yeah Northerner, I see that now... I was just looking at this as a continuation of the original thread, but it's not.

Zebra - Can you see the point that we are all trying to make?

raising my head above the parapet again.

My sympathy to all how are suffering as a result of miscarriage.

However, this thread is not intended to upset people who are pregnant, or those who have had miscarriages - but more to make a point that it is not always a "deep emotional trauma" - at least that is how I read it.

If you are likely to be upset by miscarriage being talked about then don't read the thread - but don't complain if you do.

Definitely going back under my lurking stone again now.

OK Zebra, the statistics do vary where you look at them - but as I said in my first post, 25% is an average stat - it certainly does not apply to everyone. The most pessimistic stats put the rate of m/c for women in their twenties and early thirties at around 10%. There are probably some extremely early m/c that are missed, of course, often by the women themselves. As Jimjams said, these are normally rates after a successful confirmation of pregnancy. For many women the rates are actually lower, as smoking can double your risk of m/c and other things raise the risk, including 2 or 3 previous m/c, multiple pregnancies and, of course, chromosomal problems (by far the most common cause).

National Center for Health Statistics

A new report from the National Center for Health Statistics, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention tracks the effects of changes in sexual activity, marriage patterns, contraceptive use, attitudes and economic and educational opportunities on pregnancies, and pregnancy rates over the past two decades in the United States. Using complete counts of births from the birth registration system and estimates of abortions and fetal loss, the report examines patterns by age, race and Hispanic origin, and marital status.
Here's a couple of well attributed sets of statistics.

The 6 million-plus pregnancies in 1996 in the U.S. resulted in 3.9 million births, 1.3 million induced abortions, and almost a million fetal deaths. This means that 62 percent of pregnancies ended in a live birth, 22 percent ended in abortion, and 16 percent ended in a miscarriage or stillbirth.
AND

What is the risk of miscarriage as a woman gets older?
Most miscarriages occur in the first trimester for women of all ages. The rate of miscarriage in older women is significantly greater than that in younger women. A 2000 Danish study found that about 9 percent of recognized pregnancies for women aged 20 to 24 ended in miscarriage. The risk rose to about 20 percent at age 35 to 39, and more than 50 percent by age 42. The increased incidence of chromosomal abnormalities contributes to the agerelated risk of miscarriage.

From the March of Dimes website (Danish study from the Danish Epidemiology Science Centre in Copenhagen ? lead researcher Dr Anne-Marie Nybo Anderson)
BTW a 6% rate of m/c (prob rate of teenage miscarriage) is one in 20 - hardly one in a million!

It's a bit more than that Throckenholt!! The upsetting part of this is the attitude that you should just assume that a woman isn't worried/scared/traumatised by miscarriage and just steam right in there and tell her the stats when she announces she's pregnant!

That's not being open about it and talking about it as a common occurance.... it's just insensitive and brutal IMO.

Don't want to sound like a school ma'am here (as if I could pull it off) but surely it's about time this came to an end?

zebra - you're totally entitled to your opinion of course, but maybe it would be better to be over-cautious (on this subject) in future because there's so many people on here who have been badly affected by m/c's, whatever the situation, and they don't want to be reminded of the statistics, however true they are.

Yes, m/c's may not be a big deal to you but it is a huge deal to many others. Can we just leave it at that?

Ok, some people might feel annoyed if you treat them with kid gloves over something they don't feel is a big deal but IMO that's their problem - they should be glad people care so much about how they feel. Then anyone who really does feel devastated won't be made to feel worse by having people riding roughshod over their feelings.

One of the first people I told about my pg (my first) was a midwife friend of mine. I told her at 6 weeks. She said (and I quote) "Don't get too excited - you have a one in 3 chance of losing it before 12 weeks". I was speechless (and that doesn't happen often). I didn't really speak to her much after that but she did ring me when my dh told her about my nuchal scan. When I told her the result (1 in 1663) she said "Don't forget - you could be that 1 person in 1663". She also told me that the 20 week scan "often detects problems so don't make too many plans".

However true any of this might be I find her attitude and negativity just horrifying and I don't speak to her at all if I can help it. I feel very sorry for anyone who has her as their midwife.

wobblyknicks, I would be interested to read MZ's response to these messages before this fizzles out.

But jodee, its obvious mz has different opinions to others on here and that's not going to be resolved so I just see this running on and on and getting more and more emotional, as its naturally an emotive issue. People are entitled to say what they feel but if it keeps getting raked over then IMHO, some people on here are going to end up feeling very hurt, especially after some recent events.

Piglet - noooooooo! That was just so insensitive it actually made me laugh. Sounds like she's got a problem.

Piglit - What a bitch!! I think comments like that just come across as bitter, jealous and catty rather than realistic and informative. Poor you.

Agree with Jodee re: MZ's response.

Cab and toothache - I do actually laugh when I tell people now! My other friends laugh too when I tell them - I think it's the shock of what she said and the fact that, IMHO, it was such an awful thing to say. I reckon you've got a point about the jealousy thing.

In Zebra's defence:

When I had an m/c I found the 25% figure very comforting. I was upset, but I was also extremely worried that I wouldn't be able to have a child and the figures relieved the worry.

I also agree that it can be more upsetting for some than others. I have been made to feel like a right hard b*tch on here a number of times because I did not continue to be upset for months after my m/c, and I still do not regret the abortion I had as a teenager even though I now have two beautiful children whom I wouldn't be without. I was upset at the time about both, but definately not in the way that I felt was expected of me. I went to see a counsellor after the abortion and she wasn't interested in anything I had to say about it, but just wanted me to go on about "my feelings of loss" (she actually said she didn't think it was helpful to talk in the way I wanted to).

None of this is to detract from other people's trauma/losses. But I think what Zebra is saying is that everybody reacts in a different way, and sometimes we lose sight of that. The same goes for feelings immediately after birth - I did not immediately bond with either of my two and the first time I felt very dissapointed/odd about it.

perhaps I should have changed my name for that.

I had a mc with my first pregnancy at around 6 -7 weeks. It wasn't so much planned as "not prevented", IYSWIM, and I didn't feel pregnant. Had a heavier than normal period, and that was it- I didn't grieve particularly, just thought, "oh, well, maybe next time" and next month I was pregnant again. I don't miss the baby that never was, can't even remember the date the m/c happened, for me it was no big deal.Like SP I interpreted the statistics to mean that the next one had a 75% chance of success.
My GP was horrified when I went for my booking appointment for the 2nd pregnancy, she thought I should have a) told her I was pregnant, b) told her that I'd miscarried and c) sought counselling for my loss.

This is not the first or last time on MN that someone says something at an inappropriate time, or thread, I myself have been roundly ticked off, but can't now remember what for! Lets all get over it, shall we?

Popsycal, your sister will find MN a help, she should know about it, but should also know that anonymity gives people the chance to throw caution to the wind and say what they think, when they probably would bite their tongue IRL. As long as she remembers this, and doesn't take anyone's post too personally, then she won't be upset by us!

Tissy - it is sometimes difficult not to take issues personally. Especialy such emotive ones as this

SP - This thread was started by Zebra in defence of her comment on the Sausagedog thread. In that, instead of congratulating a new Mumsnetter for newly discovering she's pregnant, she reminded her not to get excited or worried about labour as she has a good chance of miscarrying anyway!!!

So the issue is what is appropriate to say to someone who has just told you she's pregnant.

My miscarriage was much the same as yours. I had no idea I was pg, my period merely arrived a week later than normal and was very heavy and painful. The GP just said to me that I had had a straightforward miscarriage and if I had any more pains or bleeding to return for further assessment. I didn't and never thought about it much until I was an adult. Even then I wasn't upset, just curious as to what had perhaps caused it.

HOWEVER, even taking that into account I wouldn't be as insensitive as to remind anyone who is pregnant that it could all end in losing the baby! Unless they brought the subject up 1st and wanted my advice.

So, even though you found the statistics comforting AFTER your miscarriage, would you like it if that was the first thing someone said to you after telling them you were pg again? I know I wouldn't! How about a simple Congrats and then answer the original query from the MN'er who posted a totally non-miscarriage related question?

Have to say i was very very shocked by GZ reply. I couldn't imagine why anyone would say that.

When i was 7 weeks pregnant with dd1 i started to bleed whilst on a day out. I cannot really describe just how devestated i felt. Yes i knew it could happen but i was still shocked. After a weekend of bleeding and cramps i was given a scan, and really expected to find nothing there (as did the nurse). I was so so pleased to discover that i was actually still pregnant. I had in fact been pregnant with twins and they discovered an empty sac.
Now i didn't know i was pregnant with twins before the scan but to me it was still a lost baby, and a lost sibling for my dd. The fact that i was still carrying a child obviously made this easier but since then it has upset me from time to time.
No one can truly know how a newly pregnant women feels about her pregnancy but i would still never make a comment like that.

Popsycal- yes it is difficult, but please let her know- we've all found it helpful in different ways.

Personally, after having three m/c's, two were planned and one was not, I greived as hard as anyone could. My last m/c was on sat and they were all at 7 weeks. Even though I know of the high risk of m/c, and now my chances of having an acutal baby is only 70% because of the reacuring m/c's I still would not want someone to say 'dont get your hopes up'. I did have someone say that to me my first pregnancy and I thought it rude and hurtful. Even tomorrow if I were to get pregnant again (and I know all of the stats because I have done enough research to make me crazy) if someone were to tell not to get my hopes up I would want to tell them to take a flying leap. M/C happens weather we want it to or not so by telling someone that it doesn't make it any easier for someone if they go through it. I knew right from the start with my last preg that something was not right (and I knew from the moment that it had implanted too....I know my body well enough) and I had a feeling that I would loose this one as well, and I just did, but I still am grieving just as hard as if I had no idea.
The point is, no one needs to hear that they have a chance in m/c. If God wants it to happen it will, be more of a friend and be there for them when it does.

Popsy, big hugs (((((()))))

DP was a big "I'm not going to get too excited/invest too much" believer. He said it often and was insistent on keeping silent until 12 weeks. When we found out we were losing our baby at 7 weeks he was gutted. He might say it, but he clearly didn't actually believe it. I know people react in different ways, but you just can't know how it will feel until it's happened to you. The pain is still awful for both of us.