Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Low-carb bootcamp

Join discussions about low-carb bootcamp plans, meals and progress. Consider speaking to a medical professional before starting any diet.

Week 5 - Low Carb Bootcamp chat - and we reach the half way point!

883 replies

BIWI · 19/06/2017 07:41

Good morning Flowers

So the last thread reached 1000 posts. I don't think that's ever happened on any other Bootcamp! It's a really good sign that everyone is engaged in the process, even if it's not always been from a positive place. If things aren't working for you, please keep reading and posting - even if you just lurk, hopefully the support and advice here will be helpful for you.

But it's a glorious day again, and the sun is shining brightly already and the birds are singing their hearts out. I hope that this translates into positivity and optimism for all of us this week - even if you've been struggling!

Here's the Spreadsheet of Fabulousness

We're past the dreaded weeks 4 and 5 now, so hopefully things will start to get going in the right direction, and you should see the weight move downwards - assuming, of course, that you aren't cheating or allowing carb creep.

Good luck everyone

OP posts:
Thread gallery
45
OldBooks · 20/06/2017 08:44

she told us that of all the training that GPs go through - around 7 years I think - they spend about a week, at most, learning about food/nutrition

I am ShockShock at this!

YoLoZammo · 20/06/2017 08:47

Dustmotes you can do it! Channel Barack Obama's mantra!

Stuntnun I too am betting my health and potentially my life on this WOE, as we all are. That's why I want to make sure I'm doing the right thing. I am convinced on a superficial level, ie what I can see and feel, but I don't know what's going on in my arteries or heart. Sorry if I'm coming across as a doubter. That article from the American Heart Association has just perturbed me a bit. After all, they aren't peddling low fat food for profit, are they. I admit my knowledge of hflc is totally limited to the advice on bc, as I haven't read round it, mostly because there is confusing evidence and I don't know what to believe.

I asked my GP about this WOE, and whether she would recommend it for me. She replied that there are no convincing studies into diet, whichever diet you are looking at. She said there are just too many variables to be able to conduct real studies with results that are untainted by lifestyle, body differences, age, sex, health, etc etc. There can be no reliable laboratory comparisons between one person and another. Her friend is a statistician and she said they won't touch diet related data with a barge pole. Anyway, she has sent me for a cholesterol test, so I'll know more when I get the results. Previously my cholesterol has been fine. Upper end of fine, but nowhere near needing any sort of treatment. Can't remember the numbers though. I'm assuming that a month on this WOE is enough to impact my cholesterol so the results will show whether it is good for me or not. Oh, and the GP didn't say I shouldn't follow this WOE, just that the jury is out. She was v pleased with my weight loss though Grin .

ilovecherries I hear you. It is scary. If we are balancing risk between being obese and getting cancer, stroke, heart disease etc, with eating sat fat and getting strokes, heart disease, arterial disease etc then how do we know which is the greater risk?

Thanks grah. I've been afraid to make flax bread so far, as I don't think I can stop once I start on the bread trail. Once I've got more confidence in my self control, I'll try your recipe.

BIWI · 20/06/2017 08:51

@Grah0SoontobeaFatty rebulletproofing instant coffee, I do and with salted butter as it is the only added salt I have

Why aren't you eating salt?! It's a key electrolyte that you need on this WOE if you're drinking the water you should be!

OP posts:
BIWI · 20/06/2017 08:53

I asked my GP about this WOE, and whether she would recommend it for me. She replied that there are no convincing studies into diet, whichever diet you are looking at. She said there are just too many variables to be able to conduct real studies with results that are untainted by lifestyle, body differences, age, sex, health, etc etc. There can be no reliable laboratory comparisons between one person and another. Her friend is a statistician and she said they won't touch diet related data with a barge pole

Actually this isn't true. There are plenty of studies about low carb vs low fat. Yes, a good study is difficult, given the variables that have to be taken into account, but there are some. StuntNun will be able to help more here, I think - but start with the spreadsheet, that will give you links to read.

OP posts:
BIWI · 20/06/2017 08:54

I have to go to work now, so don't have time to search further, but you could start here with 23 studies

OP posts:
YoLoZammo · 20/06/2017 08:56

Sorry stuntnun could you explain what you meant here. "Coupled with the AQA's recent announcement that we should definitely replace saturated fat with polyunsaturated fat, I think we're seeing the death throes of an industry built on peddling the wrong diet to us for decades." Hasn't the establishment always said the poly is better than sat, but then there is evidence that poly is bad? I am confused.

And BIWI I'm also not clear about when you said this " - all those brands that are out there pushing high carb/high sugar and low fat/cholesterol-lowering brands are all multimillion, global companies. It's not in their interests to allow the 'fat is bad' mantra to succeed!" Surely they DO what us to believe fat is bad so we buy their diet products? Is it a typo?

I'm reading your advice really carefully as I want to understand it properly. I am a bit forensic sometimes. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

nekobus · 20/06/2017 09:09

YoLa after a little googling I'm not so sure about After all, they aren't peddling low fat food for profit, are they. For example, some authors from AHA who published guidelines on treating high cholesterol with statins also receive funding from the drug companies which sell statins.
www.forbes.com/sites/edsilverman/2013/11/20/the-new-cholesterol-guidelines-and-conflicts-of-interest/

CaptainBraandPants · 20/06/2017 09:10

Nigella I think wearing a bikini is the ultimate NSV, well done.
Happy birthday Chester Wine
Dust yes, you can totally do it.
Heman yes, my poor dog has been suffering. She's a fluff ball at the moment as she's due for her haircut on Saturday. Glad it's a bit cooler today.
YoLo I'm sure that was a typo. I would reiterate BIWI's suggestion to read Gary Taube's book. It is very well written and quite compelling.
Also, don't kid yourself that the American heart association is totally independent - no medical society is. They all have sponsors, etc. A quick google shows these and I'm sure there will be more. Probably the leading medics in nutrition at the moment are the diabetologists where LC is becoming far more accepted and patients are being advised to follow it.

CaptainBraandPants · 20/06/2017 09:14

Ah, cross posted with nekobus Grin

Anyway, had a crap nights sleep last night (again) as DS3 is suffering terribly with the heat and hay fever. Lots of wheezing and coughing in the night, so DH buggered off downstairs and Ds slept with me. Soon, that's my excuse for not doing the 7min workout this morning. I have told myself that in punishment, I have to do two cycles tonight.
Food today:
B: black coffee
L: egg mayo, aubergine fritters and salad
D: something chickeny.

BIWI · 20/06/2017 09:25

Sorry Yolo - yes that was a typo! Rushing to get it down before work!

OP posts:
nekobus · 20/06/2017 09:33

That's some list of sponsors captain!

What 7 min app are people using? Just searched in App Store and there are a lot

C4pinkwheels · 20/06/2017 10:04

Happy Birthday Chester.

I know it can be confusing and other people will throw doubts at you all the time so here is my LC story.
I sailed through my twenties and early thirties at the low end of the BMI scale, ate pretty healthy food but didn't shy away from treats, parties, booze and if I was feeling a bit chubby I could drop the junk, booze and crap foods for a couple of weeks and lose a few pounds easily.
When I met DH and we became a blended family I adopted his way of eating which was much more Darby than mine, I brought in elements of my WOE but not many. I gained weight and went on a calorie controlled diet and upped the exercise and lost some weight. When I hit 40 my metabolism changed and low calorie, low fat stopped working and I resigned myself to carrying an extra 20lbs. I had a friend who is morbidly obese, she went on diet after diet and always failed I was always supportive and would make low fat, low sugar food if I was entertaining her. She went on the Atkins diet and as a good friend who was genuinely concerned about her health I bought the book so that I could continue being a supportive friend. The book made absolute sense to me - I realised that when I was at the weight I was happy with I ate a LCHF diet, I went on the Atkins diet and it transformed my life, I was back at the lower end of my BMI, had more energy, slept better and was happy. My disability derailed me completely but I'm here and 100% committed to this WOE.

Food today

B: Eggs, chorizo, mushrooms
L: salmon, salad
D: not sure yet

styledilemma · 20/06/2017 10:15

Happy Birthday Chester.
Hope you have a great day Flowers

ilovecherries · 20/06/2017 10:17

I don't want to come across as a doubter either, because I do know that for the first time in years, I'm losing weight and have a much healthier relationship with food.

I have read most of the mainstream books on LCHF, (Taubes, Big Fat Lie etc) and they make a compelling argument. What I haven't done though is trace back their references to the original studies and assess those. Maybe I should, it just overwhelms me....I think having spent most of my working life in public health, working at a policy level,and in fact peddling a lot of the LFHC messages, with what FELT like the same compelling evidence, it doesn't take much to bounce me back into that mindset.

I know ultimately I need to make my own decision, and Ive committed fully to change around my relationship with food, AND certainly from an outside in perspective, this is wotking. I WANT to be able to do it forever. But a lot of these people at BHF, BDA, CRUK were friends, peers, colleagues and advisors. They are good people for the most part, and are sincere in their message, which they believe is based on robust research. So like YoLo says, I'm still very vulnerable to having my cage rattled

Veryflummoxed · 20/06/2017 10:22

I can smash this right. Going by the determination I've seen from you on here so far I believe you can.

Love the outfit Giraffe and you look good in it

redbeanie I think it's just as well they're not allowed, one packet would never be enough.

Didn't get chance to catch up on the thread last night but woke up at 2am wondering how your session went Jim. Glad it went well. You are a superstar to be sure.

nameless Flowersseems like you did the best you could. There are some occasions when complete carb avoidance just isn't possible and I think this was one of them. Well done for not caving and turning down all the icecream and cake.

dust I haven't managed the cold shower yet but did get drenched having a water pistol fight with ds.

Right I'm up to 8pm yesterday. Need to go and do some work now.

wombattoo · 20/06/2017 10:52

Happy birthday Chester Have a lovely day Thanks Brew Gin
Jim I'm glad you enjoyed you training session. It must feel like such a massive achievement Star

wombattoo · 20/06/2017 10:55

For those who are doubting the lchf, have a look at Zoe Harcombe's website. She explains things quite clearly. I do not have a sciency mind. It was her book that started me on this way of eating a number of years ago.

Veryflummoxed · 20/06/2017 11:05

redBeannie Sorry, I was looking at the per cracker amount and thought I could have one. Guess I've got this all wrong. apologies if this had been responded to already. I'm still trying to desperately catch up with the thread. I can see why 1.8g carb for one cracker wouldn't seem much, but would one cracker be in any way satisfyingly? One of BIWI's bootcamp rules is our carbs should be mainly coming from vegetables. There are lots of veg you could have a portion of for 1.8g. We are also aiming to limit unprocessed foods.

Hope this helps.

FinallyHere · 20/06/2017 11:06

My take on the confusing advice around is heavily influenced by the experience of DH being diagnosed with type II diabetes, some ten years ago. The initial advice was all about LFHC, plus being given a device to measure blood sugar and advised to check his blood sugar as often as he liked. We did it together at first, and so together noticed how the recommended diet caused our sugars to yoyo.

Several years later and lots of googling, we became aware of an alternative approach widely written about on support groups, which was, you guessed it LCHF. I was initially more sceptical than he was but there was no denying the results on the blood sugar meter. Fats and to a lesser extent protein had much less of an impact. GP's advice continued to be to eat plenty of whole grain carbs...

The pieces didn't come together for me until I found the bootcamp threads. About the same time, diabetics.co.uk switched its advice to LCHF for diabetics. GP now says official advice remains the same but he is aware that the LCHF message is gaining ground and is certainly impressed with my weight loss. The expression 'eyes falling out of his head' came to mind the first time I went back for a three month check up after he told me that I was healthy but needed to get my BMI back into the 'healthy' range.

Sometimes I get frustrated by what I understand about the bias inherent in the funding and hence reporting of medical research. The people funding the research, either directly in funding studies or indirectly funding chairs of universities, do naturally enough tend to be the people and organisations with an interest in the results. Why would they fund a study outside their own area? I have long been an advocate for having to publish the results of any study. A quick look on the register of studies will show how many are abandoned or the results not reported.

Then I remember to be grateful that I have found these threads, this community and WOE and that the world will be changed one step at a time. How I long for a revolution, though.

StuntNun · 20/06/2017 11:18

The big worry with eating a lot of saturated fat is cholesterol levels. Before I went low carb I had a good lipid profile, basically nothing to worry about. The last time I was tested my triglycerides (fat in the blood) were so low that the blood test couldn't detect them accurately. That was enough to reassure me. If you are still worried about saturated fat then remember that you can still get most of your fat intake from monounsaturated fats if you like. Olive oil, avocados, avocado oil, nut oils, cold-pressed rapeseed oil, and oily fish are all good sources of healthy unsaturated fats.

YoLo I have to say that your GP is not well informed. There are tonnes of diet studies out there; the problem is that they don't, and never have, supported the mainstream diet. Jason Fung, in his book The Obesity Code argues convincingly that there never was a rapid increase in heart disease in the 20th century, which is what triggered the diet-heart hypothesis in the first place. Between 1900 and 1960 in the US the number of deaths from heart disease per 100,000 population more than doubled BUT at the same time the overall death rate halved due to a massive decrease in respiratory disease (e.g. consumption) and the average lifespan increased from 50 to 67. Heart disease risk at 65 is far higher than at 50 so Fung claims that the increase in heart disease incidence was actually due to people living long enough to die of heart disease rather than being killed off much earlier by respiratory illness.

What the statistician is referring to is likely to be studies that rely on food questionnaires which are notoriously unreliable. There are still well-controlled studies where the food was part of the experimental design rather than allowing the participants to eat ad lib or follow a prescribed diet and then report their intake through a food log.

YoLo the standard healthy eating line is to reduce overall fat intake and replace saturated fat with polyunsaturated and monounsaturated fats. On Bootcamp we don't tend to go into so much detail on specific types of fat, we're concentrating more on the carbs. But you may notice that polyunsaturated oils: sunflower oil, margarine, corn oil, etc. are not being encouraged. The latest nutritional information suggests that these fats have pro-inflammatory qualities that impact on health and limit weight loss. We have doctors and dietitians that have been trained that fat is bad. We have researchers trying their best to prove that fat is bad, if the study doesn't prove that it is less likely to be published. We have a juggernaut food industry geared up to provide low fat foods. In America (which is where all this started, remember) there seems to be a massive influence of food manufactures on government policy. I read an article by one of the authors of the original food pyramid saying that what they submitted after all their research was substantial different from what was eventually published. The leading nutrition researchers in the early 20th century were in the UK and Germany. After the Second World War the German research groups were in disarray and other scientists weren't as inclined to read studies published in German. The leading expert in the UK in the latter half of the 20th century, John Yudkin, was subject to vilification and mockery by the US scientists who would not give any credit to Yudkin's theory that it was an increase in sugar consumption that was at the root of the diseases of civilisation.

At the end of the day, nobody set out to deliberately produce nutrition guidelines that were not only inadequate for the majority of the population, but that would positively drive people towards obesity, diabetes, cancer, dementia and much more. If you want to know more about how it came about then read Gary Taubes's Diet Delusion and Case Against Sugar They are meticulously researched and referenced, the second book is a massive tome and about half of it is his list of references.

StuntNun · 20/06/2017 11:29

Oh and YoLo, please keep asking questions. You won't be the only one wondering about these things. Basically I can talk about this stuff all day because I find it fascinating. But I always encourage people to read up on it themselves. One interesting area that has come up recently is evidence that saturated fat isn't good for you. It isn't bad for you either, but it doesn't offer any particular health benefit (possibly excluding coconut oil). Whereas the omega-3 oil in oily fish has proven health benefits, and we should probably all be eating more oily fish. It's still early days in research terms but the take home message is that while butter isn't the villain we once thought, its main health benefit is weight loss in the context of a low carb high fat. That and it is delicious, satiating, and slows the rise in blood glucose when consumed alongside carbs.

secretsignal · 20/06/2017 11:38

I'm in awe of the depth of knowledge on this thread, and lovely people taking time out of their busy lives to inform and inspire others Flowers and Star (but not Cake or WineGrin). It's interesting that many of us are children of the 80's it was all about ryvita and low fat cottage cheese. Never again!!

JiminnyCricket · 20/06/2017 11:45

Scroll back through the week 4 thread and you'll see the results in my own cholesterol levels after 4 months of LCHF. Pretty much everything improved. LDL dropped, HDL rose and triglycerides pretty much stayed the same. My cholesterol levels are now the best they've ever been, my iron count is excellent (so many green veggies i suspect) and I'm fitter and stronger by the week.

In terms of tracking back the studies in the Gary Taubes book etc: I have. Loads of them are freely available on Google Scholar so I've read the abstacts and in some cases the full studies of all of the studies I've heard about. Not a single one has been misrepresented in the Gary Taubes book or the Big Fat Surprise ones.

The guys on the last BC and this one will tell you I'm a huge science geek. I love a study and if it's not peer reviewed and blind, I don't touch it.

I've also gone to great lengths to find compelling evidence for the low fat WOE since Feb and as of yet I can't find anything that doesnt have Ancel Key's grubby mits all over it. He and a couple of other "researchers" pushed the low fat agenda so hard it's impossible to find anything pre-1990 that doesnt mention him and his awful studies.

Everything post 1990 is essentially low fat skeptical and the abstracts are VERY tentitively written. Lots of "might"'s and "could"'s suddenly appear where pre-1990 there's a lot of "will" and "proven".

The swedish epodemiological data that's coming through in 2017-2018 is fascinating. They are studying the uptake of LCHF diets and their impact on short term health, with a view to extending the study for 40 years to study long term impact. Essentially, sales of full fat products, butter, dairy and fatty meat rise, heart disease falls. The study started in 2010. In Sweden LCHF is now a recommended diet for the treatment of obesity and metabolic disease, particularly for type 2 diabetes and insulin resistance and is reccomended long term.

If you're a science nerd, this is literally the only diet in existance with any formulaic, positive research behind it. The evidence is far, far more compelling than the low fat research ever was. Governments and the medical sector take years and years to admit they need a turn around, it will happen.

TheWayOfTheWorld · 20/06/2017 13:13

nekobus this is the one I've been using. It counts down, gives you a halfway warning etc. There are also pictures and videos of the various exercises.

Another hot, wakeful night Hmm

B: creamy coffee. Was going to have more but got into work late and then had to dash off to a meeting.
L: tuna mayo salad
D: either courgetti carbonara or bolognaise with cauli rice.

Did the 7 min app this morning; will do 25 squats/lunges/press ups this evening.

Week 5 - Low Carb Bootcamp chat - and we reach the half way point!
YoLoZammo · 20/06/2017 13:22

Wow, I am overawed by all the advice and information. Thank you everyone who has replied.

I am convinced this is the best WOE for me, and I intend to stick to it. I hate all the high sugar low fat stuff that is labelled as healthy and I do realise I have had a complete sugar addiction along with highs and crashes every day, and it's impacted on my blood pressure. Thanks to bc I have broken the addiction and many of my bad habits. And thanks to Paul McKenna I have started to address my emotional relationship with food.

I'm not doubting that this is the right thing I'm doing, and I've proselytised about it on this and other threads, and to my family until they are sick and tired. It's just the little niggle in the back of my mind, saying that my arteries are going to get more clogged up.

I work FT and have young DC and just haven't got the time to do the indepth analysis of all the studies that is probably required, and I'm grateful for those in bc that have and who can disseminate this to us in a way that I can understand. It seems that for every study on food or drink that is reported in the general media, there is a contradictory one out the following year. It's so frustrating. One minute wine is beneficial, the next it is not. Then we should all take statins or aspirin, and then not. Then there are the stupidly called superfoods. Olive oil is great for your heart, and then frying with it gives you cancer. Bacon and burnt toast are proven killers. And so it goes on. Fat (poly, mono, sat) is one of these up and down, in and out things in my mind too. I would consider myself a fairly well informed and educated person, and I still find it all so confusing and annoying. I know there is no solution to this, that industry pays for studies and that the government rightly update their advice as new knowledge comes out, though also the "knowledge" itself changes.

I'm ranting now. Sorry.

For now, I will take all of your advice at face value, because I see how much you believe in it, and you've done your research!

I'll report my cholesterol results in a couple of weeks which I am hoping will be like those of an infant!!

Thank you all again for being so helpful and knowledgeable.