Is there something on internet explaining, reasoning with a mean/thick deadbeat why he should, morally, pay maintenance?

[LiffeyKidman]

Just wondering?

My x is maggoty rich and doesn't contribute. He genuinely believes that he has no moral obligation to give me money towards the children because I left him, and therefore 'implicity undertook to pay for their upbringing'.

I can't argue or reason with that level of idiocy and denial, and I don't try anymore.

I am just wondering if there is anything on the internet, aimed at deadbeat fathers, to make them understand and face up to the fact that they are in the wrong not to contribute,,,

just wondering, because although for now I'm not persuing x for money, I will next year. (long story, legal issue).

N1, you are not doing your child any favours. Nor yourself.

A large number of exs link contact to money, but in law there is no connection and you should not be doing so - ultimately you are punishing your child by doing so.

I would recommend you join FNF. Fatherhood confers responsibilities - not rights; join FNF and you can speak to fathers (and mothers) in the same situation who will advise on doing what is right for your child and how to be the father he/she deserves.

N1 has his fingers in his ears singing "la la la I'm not listening, the woman is an evil cow and deserves to be punished La La La"

But you still haven't told us what you ex has actually done besides leave you.

How is she a bad mother? What has she done that is so bad?

A criminal?????? You would be become a gangster???????? If you are not a 12 yo boy with fantasies of beoming the next James Bond then you are certainly not living on the same planet as everyone else.

Well gangster fantasies aren't that far removed from wanting to be a Superhero.

Perhaps we'll be seeing a fedora-clad violin-case wielding N1 at the next F4J event

N1, I'm not trying to criticise you right now, I'm trying to help you.

I think I know how you feel and motivates you to act this way and think this way.

You feel that a massive injustice has been done to you right? You feel that the World needs to know about this massive injustice, right?! Everybody needs to recognise that you have been wronged?? You need justice!!!! Is that right?

"What would make me happy? I good first start would be for the ex to admit to all the lies she sprouted and correct the record she put into court. That admission will come with a consequence because she would be classed as a lier, though the confession might hold some advantage. "

I felt this personal outrage to a lesser degree when I left my x. He had abused me and bullied me for 8 yrs (inc. physically at times) and even though he contributes nothing, he still sees the children whenever he likes! That just is NOT fair. It isn't right. It is an injustice. And for about 15 of the last 20 months I have grappled with this injustice. It has made me angry and it has made me upset, but in time, I have worked it through and I am learning to live with it and it is no longer so upsetting. I think I can live with it now. And that feels good I tell you. For me. My children aside I benefit from having moved on.

Do you think you would like to be happier?
I am not too worried about your son. He lives with his mother and his half sister and his 'stepdad' and they are ok, they manage without you, although I'm sure you do your level best to upset them. Well, well done

You think you are the ultimate judge of what is the truth and what is right and what is wrong. But you're not the messiah!. You're a bitter damaged guy and you have one life and you're not moving on. I know it is hard. I'll be honest and tell you it took me 15 months to turn the corner. In the first 15 months, I felt the same as I had done to start with.

This is your life you're wasting, consumed by bitterness. Blaming your x, demonising your x is ruining your life.

She left you, as was her right, and she is prepared to fight you in court. You want your son, well so does she. I'm sure she is less bitter than you are. I do not believe you that your son would rather be with you. He says what he knows you need in your desparation to hear.

Your x and her new partner pay for your son's upbringing, and you still see your son. This is what it all boils down to.

The rest is all in your head, and God help you I've never come across anybody more in need of a few counselling sessions. I strongly urge you to speak to a professional counsellor.

Cos as the red hot chilli peppers say, this life is more than just a read through. this is it buddy.

My x used to twist what I said too. Where N1 says that his x doesn't say what she means it rings a bell. I think n1's x is the only accurate judge of whether she says what she means, and I can't imagine she enjoys unnecessary communication with N1.

My x used to accuse me of the most outrageous skullduggery and twist every word I'd said to mean something completely different. Then when he'd calmed down a bit, the next day if I repeated it back to him, he was freshly outraged and angered all over again, that I could accuse him of saying such a thing.

Some men with this 'narcissistic personality disorder', they hear the words or they hear the sound of somebody talking, but they don't hear the meanings of the words and put them together to be able to interpret what the other person's view is. They impose upon the other person what they insist that person's opinion is. My x used to do this. get angry with me about what he said I was thinking. YOu honestly couldn't argue or defend yourself!!!

N1 - I know another sad situation.

A couple who we knew split up and had a 3 year old son. The father refused to pay maintainance but kept on regularly seeing the son - complicated situation. The mother worked part time in a local grocery as she had no qualifications and had no other real options. Work had to be centered around her child as well meaning shorter hours and no work during term times. Sometimes there was not much food or new clothes or heat all the time in winter. Many of our friends ( including my dh) spoke to this father imploring him to support the child. He refused. The mother, to her credit, did not want to screw the child up further by refusing acess out of revenge for non payment etc and did not speak badly of her x . The access visits continued until the boy was 11 years old.

At that point, the boy came home from school one day and found the mother sobbing over some bills and a repossession order from the bank for the small flat where they lived. Up until that time the boy lived in ignorance of his father's behaviour but now he asked questions. He phoned several adults whom he knew too who all ( warily) cooborrated his mother's statment that the father didn't support her at all and that she couldn't see a way to get out of this mess.

The boy confrotned the father who gave him the same lines you have been spouting here. It did not wash. The boy voluntarily broke all contact with his father. The boy got a paper round in the morning and started washing cars to help. The sight was heartbreaking. But he wanted to help his mother - the one who had struggled through all these years without complaint and without ruining his relationship with his father as she understood that was best for him . But now it was ruined anyway. By the father's own stupid hand.

The boy is now 22 and about to be married. The father cries everyday for lack of closeness and contact with his son. He used to spot him in the street ( they live in the same quite small town) frequently and his heart would cry out for him. But all the boy would think was " How could you do this to my mum all these years? Didn't you care enoough for me at least to make sure I had shoes that weren't broken and a warm ( instead of old and too small) coat to wear?"

It is that feeling of deep betrayal and hurt that keeps the boy away. And that is what your son may very well feel.

Now the boy is about to get married and the mother's new dh will sit at the top table. The father is not invited and not wanted by the boy.

A salutory tale I believe....

You need to give up on the idea that she will ever put the record straight. Does it really matter that much that you are making yourself so unhappy about it? Do you really want her still to have this ability to affect your life? Wouldn't you rather just move on?

And do you not think that she is still so angry with you simply because you aren't paying maintenance? If you starting paying regularly, maybe she would settle down and you two could start to build bridges.

Well that was my experience via dh. His x also left him for someone else, he moved out of their home with a bag of clothes and left everything else behind because he didn't want his dd and step-children to suffer. New man moved in the same day that dh moved out. Next thing he knew contact was stopped with all children and it took him 2 years to go through the courts to get contact with dsd again. His x told a pack of lies to the courts about violence and all sorts. She and her partner did and said some terrible, terrible things and lots of it in front of dsd.

But not once did it ever occur to him not to pay maintenance, he started voluntarily from the day he moved out and has never missed a payment. And now that he has started a new business which is currently not into profits, he continues to pay at the same rate and hasn't even told the CSA that his income has reduced. Why? Because it's what is best for his dsd.

And did he expect an apology from his x, some sort of remorse? No. Did he want to "pay her back" for ending their relationship or stopping him from seeing his dd? No.

He made it all go over his head because the ONLY thing that he wanted and the ONLY thing that he was concerned about and was going to pursue to the bitter end was to make sure that he had contact with his precious little girl, that he played as full a part in her life as he could, and that she was left as unaffected by whatever went on between him and his mother as possible.

And do you know what? From having to hand dsd over at a police station because dh had been assaulted by his x's partner, and ANY discussion with her being impossible, and it probably being as acrimonious as it can get we are now at the stage where we have sat in her house and had a fish and chip supper, and she rings us for support and advice. Granted it took about 8 years to get there, but we were determined that nothing that we did was going to prevent the bridges between us being built, because that was what was best for dsd. And she has done nothing but benefit from that.

I really don't think you are helping your situation N1 by continuing to battle with your ex. And I think you've lost sight of the fact that this is having a huge effect on your son.

Surfermum - good on your dh. Your dsd will respect him and you mightily for it when she grows up.

As I got rid of the solicitor and went LIP, I wanted to join FNF, I couldn't afford it. Not much has changed, apart from the debts get bigger. If FNF are suggesting that I pay for counselling to try to make me pay for maintenance, I can see me not being a happy person. While that might work for some people, I have already made my mind up.

I do accept that there is a risk involved by me not paying maintenance to the ex. I have carefully thought about that and I do think that I am better off not paying than paying. Money will not solve the problems I have, it's more likely to add to my problems. Right now, I can't work because the CSA want me to earn more so they can steal. Using my current income, I can't pay the ex and if I did, I couldn't afford to collect and return my son. The contact by far out values maintenance.

I am not upset that ex left me, in fact, I feel happier that she did. What I am not happy about is that she left, took my son (when she left, we had a well working agreement of shared care), then when the shared care arrangement didn't suit her needs (demands), she made changes to suit herself. Those changes were to the detriment of my son. He was in one of the top nurseries for a few afternoons a week. He lived in a village location with forests and fields all around (and we used the area well). Ex took him out of the good nursery and put him into one which she knew I couldn't get to after work, then moved him again to one where I couldn't get to either. Ex then changed his hours to being from 10am till 2pm, trying to make me pay for a nursery I didn't want to pay for....etc. The effect of all those changes caused my son to move (speculatively) form being in the top 25% of the children by educational standards to needing additional support programs in school. If he doesn't get through the programs, he goes onto the SEN register. This change happened over 4 years.

At the point of changing the shared care arrangement, I offered to change my working times to fit in with my son. Ex refused and forced the changes. I didn't know anything about the law or what I could do. If I knew then what I know now, my son would be living with me.

A year and a half after all those changes, add solicitors stalling everything, CAFCASS lieing (or rather accepting lies and presenting it as truth), I was told that the status quo had changed....so for 3 years I see my son getting educationally worse. The keenness in him be there but the day to day stimulation isn't.

Ex sleeps (well used to) till lunch time and leaves the children watching TV. After lunch time she watches TV while laying on the sofa.

I should pay to maintain her? Not a chance.

No, N1 pay to maintain your child , not her. That is the difference you are not seeing.

n1. you blame your x that your son is on the SEN register? ARe you serious? Do you think that children develop special needs as a result of being switched from an excellent nursery to an adequate one?

Forget about money and maintenance. I'm not talking to you about paying maintenance anymore.

What you need for the sake of your own life is to get some counselling urgently. Nothing to do with 'persuading' you to pay maintenance. I mean counselling to help you move on a bit.

I'm not worried about your son. Luckily he's got a Mum, half-sister and step Dad who are looking after him, and despite your obvious contempt for them, you haven't come up with one single convincing argument as to why your son is not perfectly fine living with them.

I wonder if my x blames me that our son has Asperger syndrome?! This had never occurred to me 'til now...

Ps, I used to pretend to be asleep before I left x. SOmetimes it was a way of avoiding conversation and therefore avoiding criticism for eg.

It was probably also a form of depression because I felt so crushed and depressed and bullied in such a miserably inequal relationship.

I never seem to feel the need to 'fake being asleep' now though.

Lostdad everything you said was right.

Sufermum - that is one of the most moving posts I have ever read and both you and your dh are really impressive for putting the children first.

Statue - You are right this man is in ned of help and cannot see what is right or wrong.

I am glad that there are people on this thread who are reasonable and have moved on otherwise reading it would make me very depressed.

N1 - my problems. my problems...

lisalisa - great post at 12:52

surfermum - i feel for you troubles. wish Dh was my ex! but then, I don't want to be his ex!

Op - to (not to say that subsequent discussion hasn't been interesting...) get back to your point - kind of... i do think that campaigns around 'be a man, support your child' and 'who's the daddy' type things would be good - ( i know those are aimed mainly at men, i so think there is room to do absent mum ads, but I think it's a minority compared to absent dads.) 30 years ago drink driving was kind of acceptable in some quarters and now, because of various ad campaigns, it is something that people are ashamed of - it would be great to see ad campaigns about absent parents supporting their kids. there really should be something done to make it socially unacceptable to not pay for your childrens upbringing.

Thank you lisa, glitterfairy (you know I'm a big fan of yours to!) and Persephone. He's a good man.

I can't see counseling doing me any good (or help) so I am not even prepared to go there.

I was thinking about the concept "money is money". The money being money is not really the issue, it's what goes with the money. The same can be said for several things.

If a dad gives money freely to an ex, usually the money goes without any negative thoughts. Add force into the picture and the money gathers some negativity. The negative can be hostility, resentment, aggression, frustration, what ever. The feeling is hardly likely to be positive. The harder it is to give the money, the more intense the feelings that go with the money.

That's why I say that it's better to get something that the dad can give which frees up the mother's case for bills.

The less resistance in the process, the happier people will be and the more likely the process will work and continue to work.

There will be obvious exceptions but I would like to think that would be the very minimum.

I didn't realize that FNF offered counseling to absent parents and non resident parents who refused to pay. To me that sounds like a form of brain washing. A parent doesn't want to pay, so they get "convinced" that it should be done. While I hold a high respect for the good work that FNF do, that one point is something I would disagree on. I know it's my personal preference. Each parent to their own.

I was thinking about the "A salutory tale I believe....". My logic about the father being approached and asked to pay for this or that or buy some things that a resident parent would usually buy, frees up some money to pay for the house. It's arguable that it might not, but who knows. The likelihood of there being financial problems gets less as well.

Yes but N1 - re your last para - how much are you paying which you envisage "freeing up" your child's mother "to deal with the bills." And can you really afford to risk your future relationship with your son based on " And who really knows " whether it is enough money or not?

I think you said you only pay for the child's activities? Well , this is less than useless. Activities can and would be stopped when poverty comes in the door in any case. All my children's activities have been stopped at the moment as we are experiencing hard times and we are togetehr as a couple. If your child's mother is experiencing hard times then paying for activities is superfluous and chanelling money where it isn't really needed. Would you rather your son plays cricket at the expense of eating enough fruit and veg?

If you really genuinely wanted to help - and even if you don't but you want to avoid " A salutory tale I believe...." - at least offer to pay some bills direct to the utility company. Then you are not givng money to your ex nor benefiting her or even coming into contact with her but can have the satisfaction - and the answer to your son in x amount of years time- that you paid to keep him warm in winter etc.

Or - another route - take him shopping for the season's clothes. He will need shoes ( if he still small at least every 4 o 5 months) , trousers, tops, warm sweatshirts and pyjamas all fairly regularly. That way your money goes directly to him and not to your x. These are ways you can help your son directly and not feel you are giving money to your x.