Is there something on internet explaining, reasoning with a mean/thick deadbeat why he should, morally, pay maintenance?

[LiffeyKidman]

Just wondering?

My x is maggoty rich and doesn't contribute. He genuinely believes that he has no moral obligation to give me money towards the children because I left him, and therefore 'implicity undertook to pay for their upbringing'.

I can't argue or reason with that level of idiocy and denial, and I don't try anymore.

I am just wondering if there is anything on the internet, aimed at deadbeat fathers, to make them understand and face up to the fact that they are in the wrong not to contribute,,,

just wondering, because although for now I'm not persuing x for money, I will next year. (long story, legal issue).

N1, all the shit about your x and her lies and your lies and your new relationship and her new relationship. It's not relevant.

Forget it. Don't think about it, don't mention it, it's not relevant to the price of fish.

ok?

Have you got that?

ARe we all sitting down comfortably???

Right, I shall begin. Your son is now part of a new style of family. He has half-siblings and by the sounds of it his mother is not the hopeless loser you painted her to be. No! she can take ALL of her children to France. Do you think she should cause resentment between the siblings by saying N1's child can have a croissant with his hot chocolate because N1 gave me ten euro, but B2's child can only have a hot choclate cos his Dad gave me nothing.

You are living on another planet N1. The best thing for your SON is that he feels comfortable in the middle of his new family. He's walking a tightrope between his mum and Dad, do you think he should be walking a tightrope trying not to either be jealous of, or not too smug in front of his half-siblings!!!???

All this nonsense about how the money is apportioned out between the various children is nothing but stupidity . YES IT IS!!!! because if you haven't got the brains to see that one of the most valuable things you can take with you into adult life is a close and strong relationship with your siblings then you are missing a huge, huge, huge point here.

You can fight every battle and chalk up every point you win or lose, but meanwhile, you son is living his one and only childhood right now, and the half-siblings you would be so loath to inadvertently help are his family, his support network....

As has been said to you before, you aren't contributing to your son, and his mother is looking after him and his providing him with good childhood memories and experiences such as a trip to France, AND you see him and you are still complaining.

You need help to move on. I can't believe you are in a new relationship tbh.

Niceguy2, you show a good attitude. To have said to the son, have a nice time son, see you the following week instead! is the action of a sane Father.

Hmm, all this N1 bashing reminds me of something my mate once said to me:

"Who is more of an idiot? The idiot or the person trying to reason with an idiot?"

You make a good point, Niceguy2.

It's true, I don't expect him to suddenly think, ah liffey now you explain it to me it's all so clear!!

In fact, in real life, I don't try and reason with my x. But I suppose this is cathartic Up to point, and then there's a fine line and it becomes a row on a forum and then it becomes upsetting, more upset for me. So I should leave it.

And I will. Here is the line _

That is just for now though. Not promising not to challenge N1 on another thread in the future!

Im sorry I cannot help myself.

Adoptable commmodities? ADOPATABLE COMMODITIES ffs these children are the siblings of your son. They are not commodities they are children. Bob Geldof, there is real man. After his wife died he adpoted the children/siblings of his daughter to ensure she still had a relationship with them. He did this because he loves his daughter and would move heaven and earth to make her happy. Like any decent father would. You are not coming accross as a decent father.

It does not matter one iota who did what to whom. You are an adult. Not a school child. This is your son. You have a financial responsibility towards him. Regardless of how you feel about his mother. I couldn't give a toss if she had an affair with your father, mother and brother you still have a financial responsiblity towards your son. And this means you have a responsiblity to ensure his mother has the money she needs to keep him safe, warm and fed properly. Him and his siblings, as he happens to live with, so of course some of your money will benefit them. What do you want the woman to do? Say to her other children "Move away from that fire, x's father paid for that gas, only he can benefit from it"

Have you tried raising children on a low income? Do you understand how devasted your wife will be when she has to say to her son "No you cannot have grapes I can't afford them?" She will then go home from the shops and instead of being a happy upbeat mum ready to play with her children, she will want to crawl away and hide somewhere because she feels like a failure.

Do you really believe that your son will grow up to undrestand this? He won't he will grow up to resent you for not wanting to contribute to his upbringing more.

Does your mother know that you are doing this? My betting is she is thoroughly ashamed of you. If you were my son I'd have given you a fat lip by now.

You are willing to go to jail before you contribute towards your son's upbringing? REALLY? And you don't think that will impact negativly on your son?

And if it costs you so much to visit him move closer to him. Why did you leave anyway? You say you had nothing to stay for? Was your SON not a good enough reason then?

You are a pathetic excuse for a man. Your son sounds more mature than you are.

Thank god your ex left you, sounds like she had a lucky escape. Good on her I say.

And breathe.

Ah that feels better.

I doubt it will do any good. But it feels much better.

That is appalling, mummypumpkin. You can only take comfort in the fact that your son loves you and that you know you are doing the right thing by him.

Your ex sounds like another N1 clone - could I say any worse!

Well Liffy, You are no further on from your original enquiry are you except No there isn't anything you can show him or get anyone to explain to him the error of his thinking.(pity that this course I have heard of at one particular solicitors in London is not available countrywide to help us all to think of the children first) As has been demonstrated even the propect of going to jail is not enough to disuade some. (Although he would really be confirmed as a martyr in his mind then)
I feel very sorry for you because you have to just not engage with him in any other way, it will do no good you will get hurt on your childrens behalf, other than arrangemnents re: the dc. Do you have someone who could be at drop offs and pick ups? Do not let him see your face and do not not look at him (sorry this sounds dramatic) but he will not be able to get to you and therefore make you sadder than you already are about htis sitation. Hope you are able to stay strong for the legal part of this but stay cool stay strong and even though it will feel like banging your head against a brick wall. Everyone else will see you as the sensible warm true parent and him a ? Just do what you need to do for the children and if he decides or the court decides about some money. Great. But at the moment I think don't factor it in. Bloody hard I know.
I repeat DO NOT ENGAGE do not play his game.Step away from the ex. Concentrate on the one person who looking after your children YOU.

My xh also during a mediation session asked if he could have receipts to show what exactly I was spending his money on to make sure I was spending it correctly. The mediator told hem that that impossible to police and anyway what portion of a gas bill would he like to get? That he would have to trust the mother of his children to do right by them. Gooo mediator. (should have seen his face)
Eventually he has let it go and to be fair he is paying every month but I feel that I have to have dcs looking bloody well clothed shod and fed for him not to make any complaints, not that I won't of course but anything that is slightly too small,grubby, out of date,etc. I feel he is still got some kind of judgement mind control over me bloody silly I know but there you are. He started paying after a year.

Well, the last 20 months have been that learning curve for me. Hoping he would be reasonable, fair etc etc etc... But now I never e-mail him, text him, ring him, nothing. My poor saint of a mum handles the handovers, so I feel detached from him now. It has worked. It is very hard to stop trying to reason. You always think one last email, one last letter will make him see the error of his ways. But now I know, he will never look inwards... never.

So, I just get on with bringing up the children! I am not too anxious about it all now. I was pretty stressed this time last year. I've managed to move on from it all. MUCH to exasperation. He can't make snippy nasty comments to me anymore, which must be very annoying for him.

yeah go liffy that's exactly what I mean.

If I had some trust in my ex, I would offer to pay something. No trust, no money. I have learned from her behavior already. I don't bother asking for receipts. I am firm and clear about what I do and don't do. Ex in the past used to claim that I demanded receipts, till I asked her for dates and times or something to show that I actually asked for them....that shut her up. I have had to change jobs about 6 times in 5 years and if the CSA get me here, I just move jobs.

I know that as soon as the ex gets money, we are back in court about contact (or lack of).

Regarding my son and his younger family, who are adoptable. If the social get wind of my ex (not by me saying anything) her children are going to be at risk or taken. A part of me is a bit surprised that she hasn't been targeted. It's over a year ago now, but my son did ask (out the blue) about moving to live with me if he couldn't stay with his mother. That answer was easy to give. When my son was asking about his younger family moving with him, I honestly wanted to suggest that they live with their family, but I answered that if he wanted his younger family living with us, they could move as well. The relief on his face was remarkable. To date, there has been no indication about why he asked that question. When the younger children are older and if I have problems again, I can apply for a change of residency. My son will be older and able to talk for himself. He does want to move to live with me but seems reluctant because (i think) that his mother told him to forget about seeing his younger family. Obviously I could be mistaken about this comment.

My ex doesn't talk to me about maintenance, that well gets me on my high horse. She and I talk very little, which I think is more helpful than not. The problem with her talking is she asks something but means something different. The lack of understanding causes her to think that I am deliberate, when what she asked was clearly different. I have to accept that it's not ideal, but it works.

I do accept that I have a responsibility to pay for my son's upbringing, but the money causes the relationship between my son and I to be erratic and unpredictable. Further, the additional money funds ailianating me, why would I want to pay to get rid of myself from my son's life? In addition, I can't afford to pay anything at the moment. I would have to rearrange my work and income to earn enough to start paying the CSA...then I got the problem with the more I earn, the more I have to pay the ex, which I don't think is fair.

I have offered to look after my son if my ex thinks it costs that much of she finds it to much to do. That offer is met with venomous hostility. The more children Ex has, the bigger her house needs to be....etc. Ex complains about the bills, but doesn't want my son to live with me and let me pay the bills for me and him. Why should it be unfair to a mother but not a father?

So, while I know that my situation isn't ideal, I feel it's the best that I can do when faced with the CSA thieves and a vindictive ex. The only important think is maintaining my and my son's relationship, which is happening.

And back to my original suggestion, I would offer to pay for activities, etc but I know that the activities are not going to last long, hence me needing to keep an eye on what happens.

Just catching up with this and most is not the same as all niceguy. I am sure there are exceptions.

Just as one example the institute for social & economic research did a British Household survey last year and using additional data from the European Community Household panel found that Following divorce:

On average across Europe a mans income increases by 5% whilst women lose 17%

Men in Britain have a post divorce income boost of 11%

Overwhelming evidence across Europe showed that women still suffer the largest financial lose post divorce and that it is better to look for a new partner than go back to work this is especially true for those with young children.

I am sure many men would not agree with me but then the evidence is there to show they are wrong.

Actually. I have already made my mind up about paying money to my ex. I stand firm on my decision. The decision might not be best and might have consequences, but the decision has been made. The offer of paying in the "secondary" form still stands.

If I am going to be seen to be changing my mind from time to time, then that's going to be seen as preparation for another round of court proceedings. Next round of court proceedings will be my application for residency. I am already confident that I can present a solid legal argument. If I manage to convince a Judge, ex can keep her money. If she does decide to pay, I would ask my son to spend it when we go out on the things he wants to spend money on. I can already see ex being on a war path if I tried to spend money that my son should be spending.

My firm position has got me this far and I am not dead yet, nor in jail.

So, you've changed job 5 times in 6 years??? Well, that really shows her whose in charge!

She's better off without your money. You'd be even worse then.

SHe doesn't need your trust! What's your trust to her?

Worthless, Meaningless, pointless.... she's not with you anymore.

If you genuinely believe that she's a bad mother then her younger children should be in care, so you're not keeping quiet for their sakes, your taking the path that suits you and your wallet.

I'm going to stop taking a pop at you now N1, because I feel so sorry for you. Your bitterness and contempt for your x is the biggest thing in your life. Your son is a poor second.

My ex doesn't talk to me about maintenance, that well gets me on my high horse. She and I talk very little, which I think is more helpful than not. The problem with her talking is she asks something but means something different. The lack of understanding causes her to think that I am deliberate, when what she asked was clearly different. I have to accept that it's not ideal, but it works.
EH?

The money you are meant to give your x is just meant to be so that your son can be raised as a spoilt getting 10x more pocket money than his siblings.

it is maintance to maintain the quality of life he had whilst you were there. It is to help rent, bills, council tax, buy food and clothing, pay towards activities. NOT just for your son and your son only.

You have left your job five times? If you keep changing jobs why not get one closer to you son? That way you might get to see him more.

And what exactly is it that your ex has done wrong, bearing in mind that she had every legal and emotional right to leave you regardless of any agreement you thought you had. She did not sell her soul to you after all.

What is it that she has done so wrong that you think you could get custody of your child from her?

Personally I thinnk the reason that you don't have custody of your son is because the courts can see you as the bitter twisted man that you are.

Also you do know that not paying for your son's upbringing via the CSA or an amicable agreement with your x will count against you in any future custody cases don't you?

N1 you haven't answered the question what would make you happy and stop this fruitless way of life you seem to have. You seem to be complaining and avoiding but not offering up any positive solutions. Please lay out your master plan/ideal scenario for us

Reading some of the posts on here completely convinces me that

(a) The CSA should have rights to withhold income from earnings much as I understand happens in Australia.

(b) If NRPs make themselves intentionally unemployed rather than support their children then benefits should be withheld

I seriously object to being in the position of having to support NI's children because he refuses to ... Seriously object.

What would make me happy? I good first start would be for the ex to admit to all the lies she sprouted and correct the record she put into court. That admission will come with a consequence because she would be classed as a lier, though the confession might hold some advantage. A good second step would be for her to actually listen to my son and hear what he wants without punishing him for expressing a wish, which conflicts with her demand. I can't really imagine beyond that because it is so unlikely to happen.

I guess that I am full of complaints. I don't see me paying maintenance as a solution so I keep to the arrangement that I have at the moment. It's working for now. Coincidently, I was talking to my ex's parents, she stopped talking to them and in turn, they lost contact with their grand child. I obviously bridged that connection. The grandparents seem to agree with me for not paying anything to their daughter. I When I started talking to them, I was quick to explain my reasons, so there was clarity and less chance of us falling out.

The grandparents have a fair few photo's of my son and one of the younger children taken on a mobile phone, that's it.

If the CSA got rights to with hold income or stop benifits, I would turn into a criminal. If I were in Australia, I would think that the CSA would have a hard time stopping a gangster's income. My suggestion is obviously unrealistic and the only gangster role I know about is that on the TV and film, so I have loads to learn if it came to that. If I were a gangster, I don't think I would have a problem seeing my son. I might end up in jail - admittedly. Life isn't without risks.

I only changed jobs because the CSA was taking money from me before it got to me. If I stayed in those jobs with reduced income (thanks to the CSA thieves), I would be bankrupted (twice over) by now.

Quote Mamas12 "My ex doesn't talk to me about maintenance, that well gets me on my high horse. She and I talk very little, which I think is more helpful than not. The problem with her talking is she asks something but means something different. The lack of understanding causes her to think that I am deliberate, when what she asked was clearly different. I have to accept that it's not ideal, but it works.
EH? "

My ex has stopped talking to me about maintenance (she used the CSA generally). In the past, if she brought the subject up, it usually resulted in a major argument. Long story short, she and I are not going to agree, so best not to talk about it.

Then generally, ex can't communicate all that well. She has a habit of saying one thing and meaning something different. I do as she asked (in the beginning) and she used to have an argument about what I did, then try to twist the argument around to make it look like I did as she didn't want deliberately. Generally, it's better if she and I don't talk. I accept that it's not ideal, but it works.

Quattrocento, you can rest easy now, you are not supporting my son. His mother sponges off another bloke at the moment.

N1 it is not often that I get angry and usually I step away form the computer when it happens but you are a shameful advert for fatherhood.

The CSA are not thieves they are often incompetent and fail to secure the money needed to maintain a child. As I have said how that money is spent is not up to you it is not your money.

Your son is being hurt by this and you appear gleeful that you can hurt him. Personally I do not understand that and hope that the courts see you as the bitter, spiteful and controlling person you appear to be from your posts here.