DD unhappy at dad and step mums

[MishaBukvic]

Hi everyone,
Just looking for some advice...

I split with my daughters father in 2018. He (John) is now married to Jane with a baby daughter. He sees our daughter (Liz - age9) every other weekend.

From the early days of their relationship, Liz and Jane haven't got along. Jane thinks Liz has poor behaviour and a bad attitude. They will have a good weekend and then it falls back into Liz getting told off each time.

I don't have/see the bad behaviour when Liz is with me. They are a polite child, sometimes a bit 'away-with-the-fairies' but it's very rare I see bad behaviour from her.

When John brings Liz home from their weekend together, I ask how things have gone - the answer is usually the same "we had problems with Liz's attitude again, not listening and having to be asked twice to do things".

I don't often have to tell her twice to do anything, and I can't get to the bottom of why it's different at her dads house.

Jane has repeatedly accused Liz of giving her the dead eye. When questioned, Liz denies it . John claims he has seen (once) Liz giving the dead eye to Jane. Liz said daddy couldn't have seen it happen because he wasn't in the room when Jane told me off for scowling.

Liz says that she feels Jane doesn't like her. Liz sometimes worries about going to see her dad because she's is scared of "getting to trouble when it's not my fault".

This weekend it came to a crisis point where there was a big argument between John and Jane about Liz's behaviour. Liz wasn't talking to Jane, and would only talk when Jane was out of the room. Jane was hurt and angry by this.
John told Liz that her attitude must change.
Liz told her dad that she is getting bullied at school. Her dads response was "if you bring that up again, I will bully you". John has admitted he said this, and has admitted it was wrong.
Liz has said that her dad said "if this carries on, daddy will wish he has only one daughter, not two". John denies he said this.

It just sounds such a toxic environment. I am not 100% sure who to believe but I worry my child is in a bad environment. But I do acknowledge that kids can be manipulative and lie.

Would it be reasonable of me to ask that we have a break from Liz going to her dads house for the dust to settle? How do I get to the bottom of what exactly is going on with my child in that house?

John is an arsehole. Keep your DD at home.

John is wrong to have said those things but I’m sure every parents regrets something…Liz may have interpreted the last thing not how it was intended. It could have been “I have two children to look after now” if she was demanding attention or whatever. IYSIM.

You’re naturally going to want to believe and defend Liz in all this. However, children behave differently for different people or they may have different standards of behaviour that Liz doesn’t like.

I feel like I have days where all I do is nag my children not to do things and feel like such a witch afterwards but it’s because I want them to grow up safe and to be nice people.

I do think DSC can focus on SM being the root of all things they don’t like and take it out on them.

I don’t think having a break would help the situation at all, this is something everyone has to work through.

What an absolute load of bollocks. What her dad said to his little girl who told him she is being bullied is fucking diabolical. And how can you just dismiss what the child has said? It definitely sounds like something that her dad would say to her going by the other comment. She’s being sent to a house where the step mother clearly doesn’t want her, and she being put down and verbally and emotionally abused. Do you think all abused children must be making up or misconstruing all the horrible things that are being said to them?
I’d stop contact asap op, depending on if your daughter actually wants to go or not. I suspect the stepmum will be thinking good riddance, and it sounds like her father doesn’t give a shite. Poor little girl can’t do right for doing wrong in that house

I think her dad’s comments are appalling (even if she misunderstood the only one daughter comment) - why on earth would he say that to her?! I would absolutely not accept his bland apology on that and would insist he explained exactly why he said it, why he thought it was acceptable and how he thought it would help his daughter.

Regarding her relationship with her step mother - could be anything, could be the step mum has different expectations and therefore finds x,y,z less acceptable than you, could be your daughter is genuinely behaving differently when in her company, could step mum is an arsehole just being nasty to your daughter. Do you know her at all to be able to have a read on which it might be? Appreciate that you might not, which is making it harder for you to work out what is going on.

At 9, your daughter is old enough to have an opinion that should be listened to - not have final say but certainly give weight, on whether the current contact arrangement continues.

Sounds like she's being scapegoated by the 'new' biological family. More common than most people would like to admit. Happy and uncomplicated belnded families exist only in Channel 4 dramas. If she doesn't want to go there anymore, don't make her.

It’s not a “load of bollocks”, I’m not dismissing what DD has said but you also can’t just take her word for it. There are two sides to every story.

IMO, 9 years old is too young to decide they no longer want a relationship with that parent. Think how you would feel if this was the other way around.

I know of a DSS that lied dad had hit him because he didn’t want to go to dads. No reason more than he’d miss mum, it turns out.

How old is the baby?
Could DD be struggling to adapt to life as a sibling?

Poor little girl can’t do right for doing wrong in that house

Talk about creating your own narrative!

I would request to talk with John and go through all of this and try and made some headway

Let your daughter take a break from going there for a while and let the dust settle.

Arrange to have a sit down talk with John and see what he has to say.

Can Liz see her dad at Gran's or another relatives for a bit, maybe just on a Saturday to try to get the relationship back on an even keel?

My DSS is a completely different child at our house to how he is at home (though in our case he's objectively better behaved at ours).

I can relate to some of what is being said about the SM. I find DSS's behaviour really frustrating sometimes, my standards are obviously different to other people's in his life, and I do feel like some weekends I'm constantly at odds with him, and yes it's usually about having to say things over and over again (though generally much more than twice).

As such, I find that part of the situation hard to call. She probably is behaving worse there and she probably is getting told off more by her SM, which is perhaps creating a vicious cycle.

What I find most worrying though are the comments from her dad. Very strange and hurtful things to say.

I wouldn't jump to not sending her because she's quite young and it will be hard to go back from there, but I would try to get to the bottom of what is causing her to act up, and pass that on to her dad.

John sounds like a shit father. Jane sounds like an inexperienced parent who is in for a rude awakening when her own child starts to grow up and display what sounds like (from your description) fairly normal childish behaviour.
A break from visiting their house sounds a good idea but I'd encourage John to take her for dinner or activity once a week instead to see whether he can parent her better one-to-one.

@aSofaNearYou
I can relate and agree

Stopping contact isn’t the way forward. Jane may not be inexperienced, Liz may be acting up when there…If you stop contact them Liz will learn to use herself as a bargaining tool in a way that RPs are always told not to

My DSD5 is very well behaved at our house but not so much at her mums. I've listened to other mum's talk about their DDs cheek, attitude etc at gymnastics, nursery pick up etc. We honestly can't relate. However her mother has called DH mid-tantrum to ask for his help and has messaged him about DDs terrible behaviour and attitude. Custody is 50/50 so she spends equal time with both parents. She has structure, routine and boundaries at our house whereas things are a bit more relaxed at mums. I think this is why there is such a difference in behaviour.

It could be that due to only seeing his DD EOWE, her dad hasn't managed to establish boundaries and hasn't gained the respect from his DD that you have.

I would usually say take everything DD says with a pinch of salt. Some kids can stretch the truth, play their parents off against each other or imply that they don't like their SM to protect mum's feelings, but given that your ex has admitted to saying what he said I'd be inclined to take DDs claims seriously.

If the SM doesn't get on with your DD I'd suggest maybe DD spends time with her dad without her being there. Although I don't think it's healthy for your DD to br in a toxic environment, it's equally unhealthy to cease contact with one of her parents and her sibling. Conversations definitely need to be had with her father.

Jane sounds like she's a bit jealous of DD and probably sees her as baggage on her little biological family. I definitely think DD would benefit from having some 1:1 time with just her dad. That relationship needs to repair before Jane is brought back into the picture.

@Laurdo
Maybe Liz is jealous of Jane and new baby…

Yeah could be. It's hard to work out exactly what's going on. Kids can be manipulative.

I think the key here is dad and from the sounds of it he hasn't been dealing with the situation very well to say the least. Should Jane be jealous of Liz, then he needs to manage that and ensure Jane isn't projecting that onto Liz and making her feel unwelcome. Similarly if Liz is jealous of the new baby he needs to manage that and ensure Liz doesn't feel pushed out.

His comment to Liz about bullying is disgusting. So not only is he not managing the situation but he's actively pushing Liz away. Maybe some 1:1 time will show Liz that although he has another DD, that she is still a priority.

Finally, someone on Mumsnet giving a sensible response to step parenting.
Those that don't have separated families or experience should stay off these threads asking for advice with step families. It's only something you can relate to when in it...and you're speaking total, relatable, 'lived through it' sense! 👏🏼

Does your DD want a break grip going to her dad’s house? Does she usually go there happily or does she have to be pushed? How long has her dad been with Jane?

Children do act differently in different situations and homes. It does sound like Liz is acting up, especially towards her stepmum, which isn’t unusual especially when there’s a new baby. I wouldn’t be thrilled to be scowled at and ignored by a child in my home either and I wouldn’t accept it. It also sounds like Liz isn’t getting much out of the visits.

I don’t think it’s appropriate for her to decide she’s not seeing her dad or sibling at nine though. If Liz has always disliked Jane, is this out of loyalty to you? Jealousy? Different rules? Is she getting lots of affirmation from you when she gets home?

I’d suggest she should spend more time with her father and sibling (days out, visiting relatives, activities with the three of them, ideally a midweek dinner with just her dad) and less with Jane. This will probably be a relief to all of them. It might also be appropriate for Jane and Liz to spend 1 on 1 time together to try to form a bond, though after four years it doesn’t sound positive. But Liz doesn’t get to call all the shots at such a young age.

just keep her at home and look after her. It doesn’t sound like dad will mind and the stepmum definitely won’t.

Your DD is already coping with being bullied at school, she needs her confidence built up and not to be sent to stay with adults who also bully her.

A grown adult accusing a child of “giving her dirty looks” needs to grow up.

I think that suggesting stopping contact would be a terrible idea.

I know she’s your DD but I think you might need to detach a bit from what happens when she’s with her dad. It sounds like everything gets relayed to you by both your DD and your ex.

And none of it is going to be entirely accurate. Neither of them will give an objective account of the SM’s behaviour.

It’s probably hard to hear but I think you need to stop seeing yourself as the person in the centre who needs to figure out who to believe and let your ex figure out his relationship with his DD on his own.

He shouldn’t be reporting to you on her behaviour and how he handled it like a childcare worker doing a handover at pickup. That’s not helping. Nor is it helpful to have your DD reporting to you about her dad and her SM. It most definitely isn’t helpful you have both of them providing evidence for you to judge whether your DD is giving ‘the dead eye’ to her SM or whether she should be told off for scowling.

It might actually do you some good to read Wednesday Martin’s stepmonster. This might help you get some insight into how you can help your DD to accept her family situation and thrive.

What are John and Jane’s plan for healing the breach and creating a loving and accepting environment for John’s oldest child now that they have brought a baby into the mix? Whether Liz is dreamy or gives jane some side eye really is not a huge issue unless john and jane make it into one. i don’t get the strict parenting and demands that Liz respect “muh authoritah” applied to a child who is only there EOW.

If they are not going to coparent 50/50 the onus is on them to work hard to help liz feel loved/safe/respected in what is essentially a stranger’s house. Maybe she is zoning out and dissociating because she doesn’t feel loved and wanted?

How did the conversation come to be:

(E.g.)

"You can't behave like this and refuse to speak if Jane is in the room. Jane has done nothing wrong and we both want to spend time with you. Why don't you want to be around Jane"

"I'm getting bullied at school"

?

Is she? What's that got to do with Jane?

Is this not massive deflection, to which the dad made a stupid comment?

(E.g)

"You need to stop the way you are behaving around Jane, why are you doing this?"

"My finger hurts"

"I'll make your finger hurt!"

As in, "I'll give you 'my finger hurts' for goodness sake. This is not ok to continue this behaviour and come out with nonsense excuses."

The bullied at school might not be nonsense of course. But it's not the reason she's scowling and being difficult to just her step mum at her dad's.

He shouldn’t be reporting to you on her behaviour and how he handled it like a childcare worker doing a handover at pickup. That’s not helping. Nor is it helpful to have your DD reporting to you about her dad and her SM. It most definitely isn’t helpful you have both of them providing evidence for you to judge whether your DD is giving ‘the dead eye’ to her SM or whether she should be told off for scowling.

I agree. It sounds like all the focus is on her behaviour, not on activities they’ve done or fun they’ve had. It’s all very serious and heavy. Maybe John and Jane can try just ignoring Liz’s minor infractions, or pulling a face back at her if she gives the stink eye, singing requests in silly accents if she’s ignoring them, and focusing on the positive times they share? If it’s not getting a response she’ll probably get bored of it.

And on your part OP, it might take the heat out of it to just say “oh dear” and change the subject when you’re getting the lowdown from any of them. It sounds like it’s been blown up over not much.

Probably a combination of Liz being jealous of the new baby getting to spend all their time with her dad, and Jane resenting the fact that she has to have liz in her new little family unit. Which is very common in blended families. I have had personal experience of this when my dad moved on with someone and had children with her.

She is being bullied at school her bringing it up when dad is discussing his wife might be her putting two and two together and feeling like she is being bullied at his house too

Have they actually tried planned ignoring? Instead of digging at her for ever perceived slight ignoring the looks?

My daughter has a real bitch face she always has she is a sweetheart but right from the start her face when relaxed and not thinking of anything looked like she was about to murder you it's not personal it's just her face 🤷‍♂️