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Mums stopping contact with Dads

118 replies

angell84 · 28/08/2019 23:40

I would just like to share my story, because it really might help some mum's to see the bigger picture - in allowing their child contact with their Dad.

My Dad was from England and my mum was from a different European country.
When they divorced we all lived in England for a time and she began to let us see him less and less. He had to go to court to fight for access. Can I add here that my Dad was a lovely man, and I wanted to see him every week - but I had no power or control. My mother had all the power.

She then took us to her home country of birth without his permission. He had police looking for us for a long time. She then lied to police that he had hit her. And told him that he would be arrested if he came to her country. She told us awful things about him

. She forced me to write letters to him saying awful things to him. I didnt want to write them. I had no say. I had no power to see my father whatsoever. Years passed and my teenage brother eventually had a break down and was put into an adolescent psychiatric unit. He told health workers there that he hadn't seem his dad in years and he needed to see them. They were finally able to make my mother allow my father to see us at the health centre. This was after five years. I still remember my Dad walking in, hugging us and hysterically crying. That is seared into my heart.

Then the war began again with him and my mother. She psychologically abused him into the ground. She would tell him we were going over for visits, then not let us go at the last minute, not tell him and make him drive hours to the airport and make him wait for us there. Again she made me write awful things to him.

My broke my father down and my father committed suicide three years ago. I am an adult now, every day I wake up in the morning - and my first thought is total pain and rage at all what happened. And pain and rage at the system that puts the mother's rights over the father's.

To mothers out there - you have the power. Please, please be compassionate and let the fathers of your children see their children. It causes unending pain to the father AND to the children when you seperate them.

OP posts:
Mum56347 · 01/09/2019 17:31

Some people here are clearly just trolling. This discussion was supposed to be about child alienation.

Givemealittkewan · 01/09/2019 17:37

@Parent999 did you miss my post where I stated that I had seen far too many great dads jump through hoops and spend ££££ to gain access to their children?

Or the part where I said both parents should have 50/50 access provided it's a safe loving home?

Or maybe the bit where I said great dads are not celebrated enough and instead the focus is on dead beat dads.

It's really frustrating to be a woman acknowledging the struggle I have seen many male friends face to see their own children who have been used as pawns and to be ignored because it doesn't fit your agenda that all women want to drive men to suicide by denying access to their children.

There are many women like me that want to co parent their children. That want a child's father involved. Labelling us all as villains intent on driving men to suicide is hysterical and total bullshit

Mum56347 · 01/09/2019 17:38

" The only question I am balancing out is the one OP asked. "

  • Topseyt

That's what I thought. If someone started a discussion on deadbeat fathers you wouldn't try to change the subject like you're doing now.

Smotheroffive · 01/09/2019 18:17

One last thing before the thread nose-dives further, the only ones I know of are the abusive men who 'lose' control and ownership of their women.

Or perhaps you are referring to all those men who kill themselves, but kill their dc first parent Confused.

Lets not obfuscate women committing suicide or manslaughter even, with men killing themselves and their dc because they've lost their power and control over them.

I hear your POV, and suicide rates are going up, but these men kill, frequently, and frankly there needs to be a better answer than just trying to drum up sympathy for them.

Topseyt · 01/09/2019 18:26

Mum57347, balancing out is simply pointing out that there can be another side to things. It isn't changing the subject at all. Are you really that hard of comprehension?

If you want a thread specifically about deadbeat dads then go and start one.

SlightlyMisplacedSingleDad · 01/09/2019 19:02

@PoffleWaffleWoo

You do understand that your experience is not statistically representative, right? I'm not doubting your experience (and I am sure you do great work supporting female victims of domestic abuse, which is so, so important), but there is a host of reasons why the cases you see may not be representative - such as the type of cases you work on, the type of organisation you work for, etc.

The British Crime Survey consistently shows that around 1 in 3 victims of domestic abuse are men. I accept that there is a strong gender element to domestic abuse in that it disproportionately affects women. And the severity of the violence inflicted upon female victims unquestionably tends to be far worse than that experienced by men. But that is not the same as "doesn't affect men". There is a wealth of sociological and criminological evidence out there to show that women do offend. But it tends to be ignored by some in the field, because it undermines the ideological standpoint that many organisations take.

Your default assumption that men are only really likely to be victims of domestic abuse at the hands of other men, otherwise they are probably actually secretly the perpetrator, is incredibly dangerous. There is already considerable evidence that male victims are much less likely to come forward and seek help than female victims are, and attitudes like yours are a large part of the problem.

Your attitude is also deeply offensive to men like me, who have been victims of domestic abuse and domestic violence (at the hands of my ex-wife, before you assume that I'm gay). And no, I wasn't a perpetrator. I went through years of controlling behaviour, and terrible rages from my (suspected BPD) ex-wife. I finally left her the second time she assaulted me. The first time, she pinned me up against the kitchen units and hit me repeatedly in the face, because she didn't want me to use Facebook, because sometimes women would like my posts. The second time she slammed a laptop down on both my hands, because she didn't want us to go to my niece's birthday party. I doubt you could ever understand the helplessness of being a man, who is utterly incapable of raising a hand to a woman, having to simply take the blows, and beg the woman who is supposed to love you, to let you go because you can't bring yourself to even push her away to make an escape. That doesn't fit with your narrative. Men may be killed less than women, but that doesn't mean damage isn't done.

Thankfully, I didn't run into attitudes like yours. My parents called the Police, and the two women officers who attended were great. The female nurses at the hospital, who checked my badly swollen hands for fractures, were also great. So was my female family lawyer. And so were the people at The Mankind Initiative, who I turned to for support because so many domestic abuse organisations share your view that men are the problem, and women are always the victims.

All victims of domestic abuse deserve support. With the greatest of respect to you, and the important work that you do, this thread was about the child victims of parental alienation (because it is a form of abuse), and the men who suffer as a result of that behaviour. It is not helpful to come on here and suggest that male victims of female-perpetrated domestic abuse are lying, or to minimise the propensity of female offenders to abuse. If a man came onto a thread about fenale victims to suggest that they are lying, or to demand that the discussion was turned onto male-orientated issues, there would be cries of "whatabouttery" and "what about the menz".

Please - if you don't understand, or aren't willing to accept, that women commit abuse too, do not come on here to tell those of us who have lived with the effects of female-perpetrated abuse (whether that's the OP, from her mother, or any man who has had an abusive partner) that it doesn't exist, or that we're lying.

SlightlyMisplacedSingleDad · 01/09/2019 19:07

@angell84 I am very sorry to hear about your experience. It must be a terribly difficult thing to come to terms with.

It comes too late for you amd for your dad, but things are changing. Courts increasingly understand the importance of the relationship with both parents. 50/50 care - which I have with my own two daughters - is increasingly the norm, and courts are much more willing now, to act afainst parents of either sex who engage in alienation. I am hopeful that fewer children, and fewer dads, will have to experince what you have been through.

I wish you the best. I am sure that your dad would want you to make the very best of this life.

TanMateix · 01/09/2019 19:07

I never thought she said that women couldn’t abuse. Just that in the vast majority of the cases, they tend to be the victims.

Smotheroffive · 01/09/2019 19:18

The British Crime Survey consistently shows that around 1 in 3 victims of domestic abuse are men.

I really think this needs balancing against the nature of male perped DA and most, vast majority, will make multiple vexatious complaints against women, claiming all manner of horrendous things as part of their abuse, including multiple vexatious complaints to ss.

Also balance this kind of stuff against the number of female and child deaths (as opppsed to male) and the way that stats are skewed mentioned by a pp when the stats inckuded the question are you a lesbian (irrelevant) as opposed to are you in a same sex relationship, which totally alters the results.

Its male on female gendered crime, and massively under-reported, so the 2/3 women losing their lives eacch week doesn't include the dc killed by their fathers or the women's deaths/suicides not recorded as DA, as noone knew.

Regardless, this thread is about OP and her experience with her mother. I hope you have found something helpful in here OP and that your life can move on. Flowers

SlightlyMisplacedSingleDad · 01/09/2019 19:25

@tanmateix I agree that she hasn't explicitly said that women can't perpetrate these crimes. But it's a tonal issue - if you make a somewhat grudging, passing reference to male victims, and then write several paragraphs about how men lie about it, and you've only seen one genuine case out of many, constantly refer to female victims but male alleged victims, and then tell an extreme anecdote about the man who claimed to be a victim then killed his family, then it gives a pretty clear impression! It's the same effect as when a media article recognises that rape is never the victim's fault, and then spends the next five paragraphs describing what the victim was wearing and how much he had to drink.

@smotheroffive - you've misunderstood what the BCS is. It is based on a statistically representative survey of experiences of crime, carried out by the ONS. It is entirely divorced from either criminal cases or civil cases, so there's no benefit to anybody from lying. And it isn't skewed by multiole vexatious clmplaints from anybody, because that's not how it works. It is generally regarded as a far more accurate representation of actual crime levels than Police reports, because so much crime goes unreported.

TanMateix · 01/09/2019 19:27

Which is exactly what you and the OP are also doing Smile

I’ll get my coat...

SlightlyMisplacedSingleDad · 01/09/2019 19:46

Well, I don't agree that I am - I've said very clearly that women are disproprtionately impacted. They suffer domestic abuse with a greater frequency and a greater severity than mrn. That's indisputable. All I'm asking is that certain posters stop dismissing the experiences of the victims of female-perpetrated abuse, which is what this thread is about. Just once, it would be nice if people could focus on that issue without shouting "but men are worse!"

Krisskrosskiss · 01/09/2019 19:54

This is so sad. I'm so sorry that you and your brother and dad went through all that. Flowers
I do believe there really are some mums out there who do alienate the dad because they cant separate their own needs from their childrens.
Sadly I've seen a lot of mums forced to facilitate contact with abusive dads though... my best friend was forced to allow contact between her son and his dad who had broken her jaw and taken coke in front of their son when was 2... courts take contact very seriously now days... even with serious abuse of the mother often fathers are still allowed contact via contact centres.. and often these dads will rant about parental alienation... it's hard to know what's legitimate
It's a difficult one and there will always be cunts of all genders who just cant put thier kids first and will continue to try and use the children as pawns in a war between two parents... I wish people wouldnt do this.

hsegfiugseskufh · 01/09/2019 20:02

Why is it that we cant have a thread about parental alienation without cries of "but men are abusive"

Well yes, some men are abusive but that doesnt excuse parental alienation.

Mum56347 · 01/09/2019 21:11

" It's male on female gendered crime, "

No it's not. Many men have been victims of abuse.

Mum56347 · 01/09/2019 21:12

I've said the same thing Bounjourfreddie. This happens every time. Some women really don't want to talk about this.

PoffleWaffleWoo · 01/09/2019 21:46

I never said it doesn't affect men. I said, statistically, it is more likely to affect women.

I treat every single victim who comes to me, male or female, with care and consideration. You are talking like I have turned away hundreds of genuine male victims. I assure you that is categorically not the case. I am still in touch with the one man I ever saw suffer abuse at the hands of his wife. Dreadful abuse.

The vast majority of the rest were liars - proven liars. Some went on to seriously injure or kill. That does not mean I assume all men who say they are abuse victims are.

I think the issue of child alienation is complex and not black and white. And I think it is incredibly dangerous to take the line that it is always better for children to have contact. It isn't.

hsegfiugseskufh · 01/09/2019 22:25

I think the issue of child alienation is complex and not black and white

This is from cafcass website

While there is no single definition, we recognise parental alienation aswhen a child’s resistance or hostility towards one parent is not justified and is the result of psychological manipulation by the other parent

Id say that its pretty black and white. There is no form of parental alienation which is understandble, justified or acceptable.

I think youre getting parental alienation and stopping access mixed up. PA as above is never ok or best for the child. Stopping access can be best for the child in situations where that is appropriate.

Smotheroffive · 02/09/2019 00:02

I think you're spot on, a lot of women don't want ro talk about this, they are too busy worrying about themselves and the other women and children that are at very real risk and keeping themselves safe.

I dont think its a terribly surprising reaction on a parenting forums called 'Mums...

There is a whole shedload of support given on here of appalling circs suffered by women at mans hands.

I don't think women should be expected to sort out men aswell! Men need to get a grip of other men abusing women and men, I don't see how this is a womens issue really, other than to support other women who have suffered it.

Smotheroffive · 02/09/2019 00:05

To be fair, Cafcass have ignored a lot of father abuse issues through contact, and children die as a result. Sad Angry

They don't seem something to hold up as a paragon of virtue in this.

hsegfiugseskufh · 02/09/2019 07:19

Right so lets just ignore everyone whos had their child wrongfully taken away from them shall we because some men are horrible bastards.

Ffs.

hsegfiugseskufh · 02/09/2019 07:21

I don't see how this is a womens issue really

Because its mainly women doing it.

Please advise how you think men should just "sort this out"

How do you stop your child being psychologically manipulated to hate you when youre not even allowed to see them?

That reply was frankly disgusting.

hsegfiugseskufh · 02/09/2019 07:36

Oh and despite the name mumsnet isnt just for women.

ThighThighOfthigh · 02/09/2019 08:39

Getting your own feelings regarding the split out of the way and focusing solely on the best future for the child is a serious issue. One that both ex partners could greatly benefit from. I don't know how that can be done, how people can be forced / persuaded to regain perspective. In the main, people have grown to dislike each other by the time they split. How to put that in a box?

hsegfiugseskufh · 02/09/2019 08:43

I dont think you can force people, but then i dont think people who cant hide their bitterness from their children actually care about their children that much at all.

Therapy would be the way forward but imo bitter people dont think its a problem and are usually convinced its totally justified.