Disagreeing over contact, getting messy

[PepperAndPops]

Kids are 9 and 10. Split when they were 1 and 2. For most of their lives Dad wasn't really part of it much, would come in and out as and when he wanted, sometimes going 6 months or so between making contact, even though he lives very local to us and drives.

The past 18 months he has been living with a girlfriend and had a baby with her. She wanted to involve the kids so has been seeing them regularly for the past 18 months ish. Although it's been very hit and miss, broken arrangements (on their side), not caring for them properly (example: he had them Sunday night and sent them off on their school trip on Monday with no suncream or hats or water - it was extremely hot here).

DD2 has SEN and he hasn't turned up to important meetings and appointments, despite them specifically requesting his input (as part of ASD assessments). Even though he has been unemployed for the best part of a year now.

Never paid maintenance, had over £10k arrears through child maintenance service and god knows how much it would be if you added up stuff from before we went through them etc.

Generally been a bit useless tbh. They have a 2 bed flat, with their baby and her son (also SEN). So my kids sleep in the living room on blow up beds when they are there. This is ok to an extent but they don't have anywhere near enough sleep and come home exhausted and miserable. They don't do homework there, bath their, do reading or generally anything useful, they allow them to play out unsupervised which they know I'm not comfortable with, let them watch stuff they shouldn't (not too awful but stuff I wouldn't consider entirely appropriate, mainly due to them sleeping in the living room they are watching what the adults are watching), they make constant promises that they don't keep, the biggest one lately was telling them they were taking them to Disneyland, then deciding they couldn't afford it. Then promised them a UK holiday, and never got round to organising it so went for nothing instead 🙄 - honestly who does this?!

Anyway, loads and loads more issues but I'm aware the post is getting long.

His girlfriend messaged me yesterday out of the blue to say they want them Fri-Mon every other weekend. And that it's that or nothing. If I say no, they will take it to court and get it. And won't be seeing the kids until they have a court order in place.

It's all kicked off now and looks like it will be going to court. They have never mentioned being unhappy with arrangements before and literally won't discuss anything with me. I've made several other suggestions for arrangements but they say it's their way or nothing.

They have clubs or commitments most weekdays and it's a bit chaotic. I have 2 younger children also with SEN so I don't really get any quality time with them during the week. At the weekend I have respite for my most disabled son and we tend to have good quality time together, but also to get homework done etc. Having a big family, there is often some sort of birthday or whatever going on as well.

Will the courts be likely to grant them what they are demanding? I realised after we spoke what the reason is - it's just over the requirements for "shared care" meaning he won't need to pay as much maintenance. Which is what he did before by having them one night during the week (while they were mostly at a club that I fund) but now doesn't do that.

Sorry I didn't realise quite how long that got. Guessing nobody would read all that!

Can’t see a court agreeing to the DCs sleeping on blow up beds in the living room all weekend. TBH though, other then that issue I think it’s a pretty reasonable request.

How often do they have them at the moment, when they stick to arrangements. The court is unlikely to change arrangements unless it is in the children's interest. It doesn't sound like this is. They are getting towards the age where they can do what they want and the court court can't enforce contact where it's not wanted. What do they want?

By the way, let them cancel contact until it goes to court but make sure you have it in writing that it's offered (make sure everything is by text or email and not verbal). It will look bad for them, which is good for you.

Thanks. They were having them every Wednesday after school (late finish due to club) then taking them to school on the Thursday. They stuck with this for a good few months but now don't want to do any weekday stuff. They were also meant to be having them for one long weekend once a month but only did this once and then just didn't bother.

OP, I feel your pain. I'm in a similar situation, and following a mediation attempt, my ex said agree to his plans or it's court - not really the point of mediation in my view. Similarly, my ex has also decided to withdraw from his regular Friday tea times because it's not exactly on his terms, so he'd rather forgo contact all together. Then bang on about the child's interests and knowing his father.

I don't know what the court would rule, but most solicitors do a free half hour session as a sounding board which might me helpful in your case. If it does go to court, you might need proper representation.

There's no legal right for parents to overnight, only for children to have contact with their parents. If your ex can't provide overnight contact in a way that safeguards their wellbeing, I don't see why it would be unreasonable to suggest contact in the day until he can give them a proper bed etc.

Thank you - that does sound like a very similar situation!

They are claiming that they have a right to 50% care and they are being reasonable by only going for the weekends. Which is rubbish as it's because they don't want them during the week! I'd love more help during the week!

So I'm very interested in you saying there isn't anything to say they must have overnight contact. They are telling me I'm breaking the law as it is by not agreeing to their terms of every other weekend.

There is no legal entitlement for them to have 50%. There is no law for you to break.

Anyway, nothing is about what they are entitled to. It's about what their responsibilities are and what the children are entitled to in terms of a relationship with their father.

It's unlikely contact will be reduced once it's in place so don't be bullied into increasing if it's going to court anyway.

They will look bad if it seems contact has to be on their terms only so let them crack on.

The court will be aware that some people push for 50% to reduce maintenance.

Based on you being the only carer for the majority of their lives and only recent and limited contact with their dad, I would be surprised if a court awarded 50%. They would likely get EOW and a day during the week if it's seen as best for the DC.

Not having a bedroom won't stop overnights being ordered. Overnights are normal. There's no law about it. Individual rulings are made but overnight contact would only be limited if there were very serious safeguarding issues.

But what do the children want?

You need to find a decent lawyer for one.

For two you need to write a very detailed time line of contact.
Find all details/messages re contact.
Only do things in writing.

I would suggest saying take it to court.
And I would be aiming to show how flakey they are. Judges don't tend to be very keen on flakes. I would be also very keen to know why the change. It'll be to do with money.

Start keeping a record of everything; broken arrangements, poor sleep, failing to apply suncream, provide hats and water. As per pp, what do the dcs think?
I doubt very much they will spend money taking you to court if he doesn't pay maintenance. Let them crack on.

How far off turning 10 is your 9 year old? Because once your DC turn 10 they court takes their view into account.

I think you have this spot on - it is all about money!

It'll cost for them to take you to court. I would hold your ground - get advice from a good lawyer - probably a couple of hours would give you enough to give you the info you need.

Would they pay the money to go to Court though?

I think that you've been more than generous and patient imo.

I'm confused but I'm sure someone else isn't. If they currently have the children one night in the week then having them 2 nights eow will not impact on the shared care calculation as it's the same amount. If they're on benefits with children in the household there would me minimal or nothing to pay anyway.
From a quality time point of view weekends are not unreasonable for contact especially eow and their viewpoint of eow or 50/50 seems very odd.

I would tell them you welcome them going to court because you are very unhappy as it stands with them being inconsistent with contact and not providing adequate sleeping arrangements and care for the DC so hopefully it will be a chance for those issues to be addressed. Then keep a record of dates offered, when they've cancelled etc and sit back and wait.

Thanks. What the children want is to go every other weekend but only one of them go. So they would only be going once a month each. They don't get along very well and spend so much time stuck with each other. ExH has a step child of a similar age and they say they have a great time when they go on their own as they play nicely but the 3 together clashes and causes arguments.

I have suggested this, they refused and said they want to do things together. So I suggested alternating between having one child, then both children etc. Again they refused.

It was actually originally EXH idea for them to go separately, going back a few months this is. As every time they went at the weekend they would report back that they have been constantly fighting and even getting violent with each other. As the 9 year old has Autism, and so do my younger 2 children from another relationship, I think the idea of going there without any of them is very appealing to the 10 year old. She did it once and I think it was great respite for her and allowed her to have some "big girl" time without younger ones.

I was reluctant to separate them at first but eventually agreed with ExH that this would be good for everyone- the time we did try it, both households were calm and stress free and the girls were much happier. He now denies this and said it's odd to suggest they come separately

They are both compulsive liers and very good at it and that is what worries me the most - as goodness knows what they will come out with. I'm the opposite and usually too honest and couldn't lie to save my life and wouldn't want to either.

10 year old does have a history of stirring trouble between us though and telling him one thing and me another which is really frustrating and just adds fuel to the fire all the time. She does this at school too and unfortunately seems to take after her dad in being an excellent lier.

To clear up the confusion with the shared care/reduced maintenance thing. He WAS having them once a week during the week but stopped recently and says he doesn't want contact during the week.

I do think they would pay to take it through the courts yes. It's not that they don't have the money, they just don't want to pay me anything in maintenance. has always been this way unfortunately.

I honestly wouldn't worry, I don't think your ex would spend the money when it comes to going to court.

Why is the girlfriend messaging you about contact instead of him?? Does he have no thumbs?

If it goes to court they are unlikely to rule for having contact with just one child at a time.

Although maintenance is a separate issue to contact it would be possible to make the judge aware of the financial situation as it illustrates a bit about your ex's attitude.

Sorry but I need to correct Do. The family courts do not care that that parents (being primarily fathers) go for 50:50 to avoid maintenance. Yes they SHOULD be aware and probably are but dont give a shit. They always try to keep contact and money separated. it is disgusting because of course they are totally related.

But it would not be unusual for a non-resident parent to have the children on alternate weekends. What might indicate to a court that they are being unreasonable is their unwillingness to have the children at all during the week. But if they are liars like you state then they will find an excuse no matter how weak and the court will probably go along with that. You need to document the children's views but not ask any questions.

But you need to insist that arrangements are only made with ex. G/F has no business interfering.

I’d let them take you to court. That gives you time to get your ducks in a row in terms of records of missed contact etc. Don’t let them browbeat you.

Let them take it to court.

They will tie themselves up in knots by the sounds of things!

thank you to all of you, it helps to have some non involved opinions. I just feel that EOW is a lot considering they don't have a suitable place to sleep and don't do basic things like sun cream- and they eat out/take always for pretty much every meal.

I took the girls out for dinner last night and had a long chat with them. I don't like to ask them questions and stuff but as she (he girlfriend) had told them already that he would be having an argument with me and then taking it to court, I felt that the conversation needed to be had.

Lots came out - apparently she (the girlfriend) has been bad mouthing me for months, saying Everything is my fault, I don't let them have them at the weekends (which isn't true, we have had various arrangements and they haven't stuck to them). Said I'm always after their money (which is a joke as they haven't paid anything and have £10k arrears!) and various lies that have led to this all looking like it's my fault.

I'm gutted that they have done this to my children. Why would anybody do that? I have spent most of their lives covering up his lack of bothering to do anything, every time he didn't turn up on arranged days without even letting us know etc. I always covered for him as I don't believe in slagging off parents to the children.

I'm so angry with them. And hurt that my children have been thinking all this stuff about me without me even realising.

And dreading what lies they are going to come out with in mediation/court.