can stbxh legally insist on our sons being cared for by a nanny Monday-Wednesday now that I have given up work?

[domesticgodless]

Hi all

After a long struggle to keep my academic job I've finally given up. The nearest one I could find was 90 mins away and with the ludicrous workload I was hardly seeing my kids at all. I suffer from bipolar disorder (I can still care adequately for my sons btw, but my own health is affected profoundly by ongoing stress such as the situation i find myself in).

I have to live in SE London due to a divorce and a privately arranged shared custody arrangement backed up by fulsome threats from xh that he was prepared to lie in court, 'ruin' me and paint me as an abuser if I 'took his kids away from him' by trying to find a place to live nearer my work. The kids go to school 20 mins away from where I currently live- I had to live out of the district as it's a posh one and could not afford the rent. Xh got house as when we split up I was suffering from undiagnosed bipolar disorder and was extremely disordered and confused and also guilty about my admittedly appalling behaviour.)

The 50:50 arrangement was sadly necessary for the last 4 years during term time as I couldn't manage the commute and my massive hours, early/late meetings, etc. I tried going p/t but the difference was negligible and in fact I just kept all the crappy teaching etc and got dumped on more often with no chance of promotion. So bye bye career for now :(

So now I do not have any work and not much prospect of getting any due to mental health and poor research record. My stbxH is rabid about 50:50 as a sort of matter of principle. This despite the fact that the children are with a nanny from 8-7 every weekday he has them. So Mon- Wed (the day of changeover at present, with me having to return them at 6pm Saturday).

I am pretty sure that the children would prefer me to care for them and not her, and they've said as much. During previous mediations when I've suggested that if I gave up work I would want to look after them and take them to school every day during term, he reacted as if I'd threatened to abduct them and started accusing me of being a bad mother and child abuser etc and saying that I was trying to disrupt their 'routine' and lives etc. Would he have any leverage with this argument does anyone think?

Also any advice on how I go about establishing this? Will I need to try to get a residence order giving me weekday residence? The current arrangement was never finalised in court but is obviously the 'status quo'. Might I end up forced to pick up the kids in the morning for school run and then drop them to his at 7pm to preserve said status quo? (stupid, but I know how much 'father's rights' mean to courts now.... and he is desperate for me not to seem to have 'control' over the children).

Thanks ffor any help or advice. i am confused and feel very intimidated by him. Due to my mental health I suppose, and my admittedly bad behaviour to him when we were married, I have often believed his jeering about what a bad mother I am and that he is the better parent and I should just bugger off and do as I'm told.

I actually missread what you typed and thought you were actively suicidal at the mo.

Have you tried calling justice for women? Google them they can speak over the phone and have lots of experance of this type of thing you may find it reasuring

It's OK Sock, I can see why you read it like that.

It's complicated. I get very very down and in so much pain mentally, through guilt and self hatred and feeling hopeless about my life- and obsess about doing it (only when alone and not with them). I start to lose hope and go down a great big mental hole.

Yesterday (alone in house) I was thinking about doing it with some pills I have so I googled some 'how to kill yourself' websites (largely to put myself off with the descriptions of the methods!!) but came across one which said 'you may see yourself as a person who can bring nothing good to the world. But imagine how much good you can do by NOT inflicting the trauma of your death on others'. That struck a chord, and stopped the obsessing. I know that by staying alive and trying to help myself get better I am doing right by the boys. Also I read that of 1million people who attempt suicide only 33k are successful! Those are pretty crap odds, might as well live (sorry, black humour is a useful coping strategy for me atm :D)

I would never claim to be mentally well and no doubt I would be a better mother if I was. However I do think H's horrible conduct has something to do with this. He has imposed a shared residence agreement by force and threats on an ex for whom it simply doesn't work, because of my work constraints. That is not how shared residence should be.

I do wonder if I should have just given up and become the non resident parent, as he so clearly wanted me out of the picture, and me being around and so stressed and unhappy was causing stress to the boys- but I don't think that is fair on them. They hated it when I was away working intensively for one term. They love me picking them up from school etc and are always asking for it.

H is very very rattled that I've given up work. I don't think this is for financial reasons either as I'm not asking for more money atm. He knows damn well if I'm not working then he stands to lose his precious control over 'his' boys and he cant bear me to have 'more time with them'. Why the fuck??? I just don't get it. I'd be delighted for him to have more time with them. Why is he treating them like little commodities to be chopped in half???

He even said to me at the mediation where he accused me of child abuse: 'you don't deserve 50:50 custody, but I am giving you that because that is fair'. Wtf does 'fairness' have to do with it? It is about what the children want and what is good for them. So how is he this fucking perfect dad then?

I wonder if they will see this when they are older or if they will still adore him as they do. Obviously I will never say anything negative about him to them but I think they pick up his contempt for me.

argh, just lost a mammoth post

I remember your postings well previously and am sorry this is still continuing. Will post later this evening. Take care.

thanks ReportMe, it is nice to be remembered even if it's for my longrunning domestic nightmare saga :D please do post again later if you can face it I'd appreciate it.

The Court is interested in what is in the best interests of your children, that is to be cared for by a parent - not a nanny.
You were given advice by a Barrister but didnt follow it through (I understand why)
get yourself some help - GP etc if you are feeling low - but be clear that part of your depression is related to the children.
get yourself back to Court - to vary the existing order or issue application for residence.
Stop engaging with this horrible bully and stand up for yourself (I know thats easier said than done but you can do this - for your childrens sake)
If your Solicitor is crap then get a new one - research the Barristers near to you and tell them who you want to represent you at Court.
Ok career is on hold - well I know thats disappointing but you'll get over it.
As for the finances/divorce - you are now entitled to legal adi - use it to sort the finances - get signed up for legal aid before the major cuts next year when you wont be eligible

Damn, my lost post was so much better but in essence it was pursue you court claim for more time with your boys, if you can afford to be a SAHP, but if that does not happen, bide your time - you see your boys, they'll be voting with their feet soon enough, and fill your life with things that nurture you.

I do recall very well how hard you have battled to get to this point (did your exH move his sister in to look after the boys?) and it is testament to your strength and fortitude that you have tried every which way to make this work. As I am sure you are aware, joint custody doesn't have to mean 50:50 and your exH, in making it virtually impossible for you to work and see the boys, may well have shot himself in the foot if you are now able to be a SAHP and he not. I can see why your barrister may think you have a good case for having the boys when your exH is at work.

I also wonder how much of a toll this constant entrenched fighting with an arse of an manipulative ExH has taken on your well-being, and whilst you give one last shot with the barrister, that whatever the outcome you push for the finances to be sorted and get to decree absolute. Afaik (from a friend's divorce) he cannot block sorting finances forever and court will insist. Your exH takes up too much time in your head (I recognise this all too well!) and is preventing you from moving on and forming other relationships.

I understand that your academic career ended as it wasn't compatible with being a parent and additionally the pressures it brings are not good for your mental well-being, but that happens in that kind of arena a lot - it's not fair, but it is very common. I have a friend who worked in a highly academic, highly pressured field for 25 years and she burnt out. She now works as a postwoman: she likes the fresh air, early morning starts, the order. She takes a few students in the week for the intellectual fun without the pressure, but in her down time runs a book club, toys with her toy-boy lover and indulges her passion for art galleries abroad.

You could choose to look for a p/t job that is good for your soul - one that gives you contact with other adults so you aren't lonely and you build friendships, not just acquaintances through the dcs; one that keeps you busy so you aren't counting down the hours 'til you are with the children and one that doesn't place unreasonable pressures upon you. I just give you this to consider, so if you couldn't afford to be a SAHP or matters stayed the same re the children, it need not be a disaster. Many women, including me, choose this child/work combo as the most fulfilling option.

You are a good mum and you deserve happiness.

Hi ReportMe....yes, it is certainly hard to have other relationships with this hanging over your head. I have to say I don't really expect anything else in my life now. My only admirers seem to be men who don't have children and want me to party with them... not going to happen. Feel prematurely aged and toxic with despair most of the time....of course the sheer amount of baggage and restriction on my life puts people off me. And as for being depressed, you lose friends as well as lovers cos being with you gets people down!! My relationships post-divorce have been pretty awful anyway though for other reasons (I clearly have poor taste in men!!! hehe).

Luckily H's sister moved out. He moved her straight in after I left but she's got other stuff to do now. So he's dependent on a team of cleaners and his nanny.

I think you are right re. academia: burnout for no real reward. For sure there isnt' a lot of money in it! I know of almost no woman with more than one child who is doing well in it (I am sure that there are such women but I don't know them). Correction, I know one- but she is in a very supportive relationship with another academic who works in the same institution- and she still finds it very hard and exhausting.

Having said that it does seem that there are few good jobs left and everyone is overworked and knackered without enough time for their kids! So I do wonder if I'm throwing something away. I will never know I guess.The kids want more of me anyway.

I hope that at some point there is employment for me out there which will be approaching my skill level in some way but in these dire times I cannot rely on that, can anyone who has to take time off for kids?

I rang another solicitor who is definitely more bullish and I think I need that now. He was fairly confident that if I were not working I had a strong case for more residence, that we could at least put convincingly to the court. Also he said the delay in sorting out the finances is extraordinary but completely explicable as H has everything he wants now (except his 'clean break' which even he realises is delusional) so why would he do anything? (Well, you would think reasons of decency would come into it, but no :))

I cried a lot today, feel griefstricken and hollow but don't feel suicidal after what I read on that website. The odd fantasy of shooting myself and it all being over- but it is a fantasy. I read a blog post by a friend, another single parent whose girlfriend left him, entitled 'love yourself so no one has to' and I am taking that as my motto for now. I don't love myself at all and that is at the root of a lot of all this.

On a completely practical level, can you afford to be a SAHP long-term? This is why it seems imperative that you push for financial settlement so you know where you stand and surely will influence who has the children when. Courts prefer a mediated approach although agreeing finances is often more costly than the divorce itself. As he earns considerably more than you and has kept the marital home there are all kinds of issues to be considered.

Whilst you are still connected to and dealing with an arse of an exH it must be very hard to have a hale and whole relationship with someone else. I understand your focus is the children/access but you need to do things that nurture you too.

I also think you should get divorced once and for all and on basis that you are not going to be earning well In near future.

Mediation would be best way of agreeing day time arrangements. Court may agree that the nights with him stay as they are so equal time with each parent. Him working and hiring child are is his prerogative but it may make sense for you to do more school pick ups.
But keep some time for yourself to look at other work options or hobbies or interests not just the children you need something for you which inspires and fulfils you what about something arty or writing for yourself not academic ?

Don't give up all your time as you would then lose the "advantage" of being separated and having an involved father. (even if you dont agree with the manner he is involved fact is it is a status quo now that he has x nights per week ) Ie keep some time for you.

Your kids will grow up and you will need to build something other than work to keep yourself and your mind active and not ruminating. Charity work volunteering artistic hobby ?? Keep at least a 24 hour period per week for you .

If I were you I'd leave the arrangements with your kids as they are and concentrate on getting some part-time work for at least half the week. You say your boys adore their dad, he has them 50% of the time and would clearly fight to retain that, you don't say he's a bad parent in any way (hiring a nanny does not make him a bad parent). I really can't see that a court would take his nights with the children away purely because you're currently unemployed and able to do school pick ups. Look at it the other way around - if he lost his job, and suggested you'd therefore have to have them only at weekends, you'd object wouldn't you?

It also might be better both for your mental health and your chances of finding work to not be fighting things through the courts and instead keep things as they are, enjoy the quailty times you do have with your kids, and make use of the care they receive from their dad as an opportunity to do something for you - work, voluntary work, retrain, etc, and to build up a good social network.

Unfortunately you can't just decide to be a SAHM unless you have huge amounts of money to support yourself with - you'll need to claim benefits. If you're well enough to work (and the bar is pretty low these days) you will have to claim job seekers allowance, which means you have to be available for work and actively seeking work. You can limit this to work that you can do around your childcare comitments, but in reality you'd find it much easier to find work if you make use of the two days a week that your ex currently has covered. Do think outside academia though - am sure you'd have pleanty of skills you could use elsewhere or do something completely different.

And to answer your question - legally all parents are allowed to take time off (possibly unpaid) to care for their kids if it's an emergencey

purpleroses I don't think that 8-7 with a nanny and sleeping in his house really counts as 'time with their dad. I'd be prepared to give him every weekend which would DOUBLE his time with them but he refuses because he is obsessed with '50:50' (and his drinking/working time at weekends). This for me is not a fight about time and control, but for him I think it is.

My career is over as you would see from reading the thread, and I don't particularly want to do minimum wage or voluntary work just so my kids can sit with a nanny they don't like at all. She is awful, btw, even my youngest's teacher has commented on how she never smiles or greets ds2 pleasantly- and H will not change her as he cannot be bothered.

I will be prepared to drop them at his at 7pm if that is what the court orders; or if they order things to stay the same, then fair enough, but at least I have tried to do what I think is right by them.

If my ex wanted to care for the kids instead of a nanny I would quite happily accept that. Money would be a problem but I would try to work something out with him- perhaps both working p/t and living somewhere a lot cheaper, state education etc. Why on earth would I want a nanny caring for them when a parent was available?

My eldest is unhappy with the situation and will be increasingly as he gets older I should think. Yes, later on of course he can 'vote with his feet' although I can't see xh coping with that too well tbh, he doesn't take to loss of control and it does worry me :(

btw purpleroses I do not think that having a nanny makes one a bad parent. I had one myself when I could afford one. But I did not leave my kids with her from 8-7, I was working at home, they popped in and out from 3, she left at 5 etc. And obviously if we were both working ft it would be necessary.

But I am in a situation where I cannot work ft and see my kids as I cannot get employment in London. Without working as an academic I am indeed unemployed. And my kids want me not the nanny. It's a no brainer for me but obviously if the court disagrees I'll have to find work or retraining of some kind.

Btw of course we can afford me to be an SAHP, exH currently pays his nanny £45k including tax and NI. For 4 days work a week (he keeps her on for 4 days even though she only works 3 days a week, for reasons I cannot fathom)

also at no point have I called my H a bad parent, please take note. although I do think that the amount of energy he puts into pretending I don't exist until I magically come out of a pumpkin on Wednesday afternoon, and/or that I am a child abuser, is not doing his children much good.

c'estlavie I did try mediation but he was utterly horrible and I ended up unable to drive home I was so traumatised by it. I sat in the car for 40 minutes shaking. He accused me of child abuse, told me the kids did not like me and preferred him, that I did not deserve 50:50 for 'what I had done to the kids' but he was giving it to me as 'it was fair' (wtf?!!) Said that he was the one offering stability when all I had to offer them was chaos, said I was too mentally ill to care for them (except presumably when he 'allowed' me to etc etc).

He keeps tabs on me all the time and recently sent a long email complaining about various things he had 'observed' eg that one time ds2 had come home wearing his school sweatshirt and 'had obviously slept in it' (no, he put it on himself the next day for some reason), kids were being given dinner too late on Saturdays (?! think he was annoyed kids were not eating food he'd prepared for them on Sat night), and apparently I was exposing them to 'violent video games' (? just not true at all), ending with the warning that 'there had been many other things he had bitten his tongue about but he felt he really had to say something'. etc etc. He is totally superior to me and can't restrain his contempt.

At the mediation the mediator ended up shaking her head and saying we were so far apart we would have to go to court. Shortly after that as I was too depressed to face that at the time I signed an agreement drawn up by him that we would do 50:50 and review in 2/3 years time where we were living with a possibility of moving to a more mutually convenient location for my work. He's since refussed to discuss that.

they not going to need a nanny for too long though - they will be able to vote with their feet and go over to yours after school when they want.

agree your ex sounds horrible and controlling. just ignore his statements as much as you can....and so what if ds slept in his sweatshirt and wore it next day?? (which wasnt teh case but what if it was? no crime...)

dont even think to give up your weekends with the boys! there is lots you can do on a wekend you cant on a school day. go away to see friends or family for example.

But you can't say "we" can afford for me to be SAHM - because you and your ex are splitting up. So it depends on whether he is willing to support you to be one. If he is, then that's fine - but you say he doesn't approve of you having left your job - which suggests to me that he might not approve - eg if he sees it as a threat to his 50% childcare. In which case it will depend what he actually has to pay you by way of CSA or spousal maintenance. Might be a good idea to work out whether this is enough to live on.

Also - would agree with cestlavie - I wouldn't give up alternate weekends with my kids for the sake of a bit more time with them in the week. Weekends are the fun times.

I also advocate not giving up your weekends with the boys as that's the time when you do 'stuff' together and they get that one big expanse of time with you, rather than giving them that time with their father nanny.

From the way you have described your exH in these and past threads he really isn't going willingly approve funding you instead of the nanny to be with the boys on 'his time'. He is too embittered to want what is best for them which is maximizing the time the boys have with both parents. When parents can be this unselfish and either sufficiently friendly/sufficiently removed, then that approach works. When it doesn't, when there's much aggression and bitterness, then a straight down the line, his time/your time gets imposed.

The problem is he's overstepping greatly, trying to tell you how to parent the boys on your time with those snidey, controlling emails. I'd be tempted to just reply, "I have received your email and logged the contents" - but that may be too confrontational, and maybe just filing them in a folder called 'Beer belly/receding hairline' and ignoring them would be best. Am sure other MNers will be able to advise what to do about those, but I certainly wouldn't respond to the contents.

But to go back to my point about being a SAHP, how are you going to afford it? Has the solicitor/barrister indicated that he will have to fund you in some way given the disparity of income?

I remember your original threads very very well.

I really hope that get awarded more time with your dc, it is crazy that they have a nanny for such long hours when you are now available and would be long term as any new job would be more family friendly.

Hope you don't think I'm hectoring, but don't dismiss taking a job or see it as a disaster if you have to. It can really be the best of both worlds. And whatever you do, don't give a fig for whatever your sneery exH thinks about it.

You mentioned dismissively? being a secretary but why not?
My cousin works for the foreign office as a secretary, has to keep schtum about some aspects of her work, attends many embassy functions and has a lovely social life. Or a friend of my father's who works for a major record company round the corner from Harrods, is now a bigwig in the industry but starting out taking dictation.

Or what about volunteering in your dcs' school?

You mentioned feeling lonely, wondering how to fill the time when the dcs were not with you - a job, one that doesn't eat you up and spit you out, but gives you another interest, lets you meet other adults, form friendships, provides a structure and purpose to your day could really help your mental well-being, which would benefit you and your boys.

Anyway, have er bent your ear enough and will stop, promise!

ReportMe I actually responded to his control-freak email regarding his 'concerns' with a request to attend joint counselling as I was concerned about the amount of resentment he seems to be carrying. And I recommended him a self-help book which had helped me deal with my post-divorce anger. :D I don't think that went down to well although it was well meant....

He totally refuses to attend joint counselling despite the odd statement abotu how he wants us to 'co parent effectively' etc which is just window dressing for 'I am the perfect parent mouthing stuff I think a judge would like', imho.

Purpleroses, re. maintenance he already pays enough for me to be an SAHM if I wanted to, things would be tight but I would be saving on commuting costs and costs of B and Bs when at work etc. I dont' know if you're aware of the family law principle involved but particularly when there is supposed to be shared residence it's considered to be wrong for one 'half' of the family to be living at a substantially different standard than the other. Given that he kept the 5 bed house and has a full time nanny, a cleaning team and a gardener while I am in a small rented 3 bed in a far cheaper area further from the school he insists (with threats) that the children must remain in and do my own housework (alright I'm hardly on the breadline but the kids notice the difference already and say things like 'dad is richer than you isn't he mum') he is already maintaining a different standard and now wants a clean break which would effectively drive me out of London altogether as the rent on this house would take up 3/4 of my monthly salary even if I were full time.

According to my new solicitor I have every right to claim maintenance to look after the children in place of his nanny (particularly as I have not been given the house or any sort of lump sum as he doesnt' have the capital- he spends all his huge income every month) unless the court decide to agree with you and others on this thread that his preferred rigid 50:50 system is best regardless of who is actually caring for the children. My current legal advice is that this is unlikely, although of course not impossible. We'll see. I am quite calm about it atm, what will be will be.

btw I would agree to give up my weekends with the boys (maybe having 3/4 over the year to take them away to places with me) as I am not actually doing this for me but for them- I am not trying maximise MY 'fun time' but theirs. If it's with him so be it tbh, I would be preventing them being in the 'care' of their horrible nanny anyway and I would have the long days with them in the holidays. If I want to write etc I could do it at the weekends. What amazes me is that he doesn't actually want more time with them. It's just about having them in his house, under his control.

so would he want them weeknds anyway ? or does he have a weekend nanny?

i still donthink it is right to say that all weekends should ever be with one parent . doesnt give good mesage if is all about fair and fifty fifty .

well he's the one obsessed with 50:50 not me. I just want less time with the nanny and I thought that might be one way to address his incredible fear of the boys getting 'more attached' to me than him. Fair enough, it may not work. more and more I'm leaving this in the hands of the judge, we're going to make a proposal and see what happens. My solicitor thinks that in spite of H's bravado he may actually cave in and negotiate a compromise with me (he's seen his accounts and his expenditure is so high cos he's still trying to live the upper middle class dream that he has very little liquid cash for legal fees- whereas I have some savings as I've lived like a poverty stricken hermit for years when not with the kids- one benefit of severe depression :-0)

cestlavie why on earth woudl he need/want a weekend nanny?! surely a babysitter would be sufficient if he wanted to go out drinking?

The truth unfortunately is that H's Saturday nights/Sundays (when he is between big trials) are a total blur of drink and other things :S Always have been- he is an appalling drinker when not working- one of the reasons I fell out of love with him.

I didn't say that 50-50 split was best, just that fighting it through the courts might be a lot of stress for little gain and that if you won, it would then be harder to get another job. The kids are only with the nanny for two days after school from what you say, and 3 days with you. (I'm as puzzled as you are as to why he pays her full time?)

Great if you can afford to be a SAHM from what he pays you or will have to pay you post-divorce. But you sound a bit confused about whether this is the case or not - if not having a job requires you to move out of London you might struggle to argue that that would be the best thing for your boys.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.