can stbxh legally insist on our sons being cared for by a nanny Monday-Wednesday now that I have given up work?

[domesticgodless]

Hi all

After a long struggle to keep my academic job I've finally given up. The nearest one I could find was 90 mins away and with the ludicrous workload I was hardly seeing my kids at all. I suffer from bipolar disorder (I can still care adequately for my sons btw, but my own health is affected profoundly by ongoing stress such as the situation i find myself in).

I have to live in SE London due to a divorce and a privately arranged shared custody arrangement backed up by fulsome threats from xh that he was prepared to lie in court, 'ruin' me and paint me as an abuser if I 'took his kids away from him' by trying to find a place to live nearer my work. The kids go to school 20 mins away from where I currently live- I had to live out of the district as it's a posh one and could not afford the rent. Xh got house as when we split up I was suffering from undiagnosed bipolar disorder and was extremely disordered and confused and also guilty about my admittedly appalling behaviour.)

The 50:50 arrangement was sadly necessary for the last 4 years during term time as I couldn't manage the commute and my massive hours, early/late meetings, etc. I tried going p/t but the difference was negligible and in fact I just kept all the crappy teaching etc and got dumped on more often with no chance of promotion. So bye bye career for now :(

So now I do not have any work and not much prospect of getting any due to mental health and poor research record. My stbxH is rabid about 50:50 as a sort of matter of principle. This despite the fact that the children are with a nanny from 8-7 every weekday he has them. So Mon- Wed (the day of changeover at present, with me having to return them at 6pm Saturday).

I am pretty sure that the children would prefer me to care for them and not her, and they've said as much. During previous mediations when I've suggested that if I gave up work I would want to look after them and take them to school every day during term, he reacted as if I'd threatened to abduct them and started accusing me of being a bad mother and child abuser etc and saying that I was trying to disrupt their 'routine' and lives etc. Would he have any leverage with this argument does anyone think?

Also any advice on how I go about establishing this? Will I need to try to get a residence order giving me weekday residence? The current arrangement was never finalised in court but is obviously the 'status quo'. Might I end up forced to pick up the kids in the morning for school run and then drop them to his at 7pm to preserve said status quo? (stupid, but I know how much 'father's rights' mean to courts now.... and he is desperate for me not to seem to have 'control' over the children).

Thanks ffor any help or advice. i am confused and feel very intimidated by him. Due to my mental health I suppose, and my admittedly bad behaviour to him when we were married, I have often believed his jeering about what a bad mother I am and that he is the better parent and I should just bugger off and do as I'm told.

Not sure about what the court's angle would be but if your ex would agree you having them in the day and dropping them back at his on "his" nights might not be such a bad thing. Me and my ex did exactly that for a period when he was out of work - he had them in the day and returned them to me after work. Or could you ask to have them from the Wed am at least? That wouldn't reduce your ex's time with them at all would it?

Your ex may try and argue that your being out of work may be temporary - so he needs to maintain the nanny in case you find a job (this was my main concern when my ex was doing daytime care). How old are the kids? Once they're 5 or over you'll be expected to be looking for work if you're claiming benefits.

You have my sympathies with giving up the job though -academic careers are utterly incompatible with needing to in one place and care for children :(

yeah purpleroses if I were in another type of job none of this would be necessary.

The other academics I know are either childless or have the type of partner who travels with them everywhere. Not the case for me even when I was married, although when we were he agreed to let the children go with me to wherever I worked and he was going to come up at weekends. Only when we got divorced did the compulsory 50:50 come in. And my career at that point was basically over- not that he gives a shit, although he seems to think it's appalling that I'd consider giving up work (he's said as much).

I guess I would like to retrain etc, but at 39 and with mental health problems, I don't know what else I can do! And I don't have much confidence in myself any more, or much concentration and drive due to the ongoing depression.

I would like to be able to pick the children up from school every day. I don't want to reduce my ex's time with them: I want to reduce his nanny's time with them and cover it myself. We live 20 mins apart so it would be a pain to keep dropping off but hardly impossible.

I don't really see though how having them from Wed am only is going to change anything. I already pick them up from school on Weds. And I don't really see what the good is of me sitting around on my own on Mon and Tues doing nothing when I could be with the kids at least some of the time. His nanny is awful, they have repeatedly said they do not like her, plus he uses her salary as an excuse to try to cut my maintenance.

Hello :)

So I have no experience in your situation but a few things just really felt wrong about the way your ex is behaving.

I really think you need to go see several family law solicitors for your free 30 minute consultations. Seeing a few will give you different legal perspectives and also lots of knowledge. You will also hopefully find the legal perspectives to empower your position and the way you are with your ex.

It sounds to me like he is a controlling fuckwit and is purpsoefully using your MH etc to blackmail you and force you into situations. He cannot just walk into a court and "ruin" you with lies its absurd and very very emotionally abusive! What a twat! Just because you have MH issues does not make you a bad mother and this is common knowledge. It sounds like you have been functioning well and trying your best so well done you :) Has your ex always been like this with you?

Have you considered posting in relationships section for advice and suppport on how to deal with stbxh? Its great in there and lots of amazing woman with tons of stbxh experience. Plus the traffic is high so your bound to get more comments back etc

Is giving up your career 100% what you want? If there was a way would you return to work? I really feel you need proper advice and support on these decisions because if location is the issue then surely its something you could sort out with legal stuff sorted? If your work is keeping your self esteem up then maybe you should stay on? You'll need to elaborate a bit more about your work stuff because it sounds as if you ex is forcing your hand on this one and then turning it against you. Do you have an old supervisor/boss anyone who you turn to and can hold these kinds of discussions with?

Whats your RL support network like? DO you have friends and family you can lean on for love and support and strength against that horrible man?

xxx

Did you post about your arsehole ex last year? Seems to ring a bell.

You really need sound legal advice. It seems you have been badly bullied by him.

Good luck x

yes CrackFox I have posted before. The saga has been going on for years.

I had a wonderful job 2 years ago but it was in the midlands. After the split it was made clear that I would be considered to be 'abducting' the children if I took them up there, so I didn't even consider it. I tried for a while to commute to that job but it was just exhausting and I had to rent a flat up there thus making my take home pay about £800 pcm half of which went on train tickets!. I got another job 90 mins commute away....I'd like one much closer and then maybe I could have a job and see my kids... but the London academic market is a killer and a 39 year old with MH and a diminishing publication record is just not going to make it.

Mama, stbxh was not exactly horrible in the marriage- although he was always odd. Distant, a big narcissist. We are both clever types and I think he saw us as some sort of superior couple and me as his intellectual trophy in some strange way (I never believed this). He turned completely against me when I lost my marbles, went totally cold and vengeful. In a way understandable, as he took the brunt of my awful behavoiur, and it was truly awful. Promiscuity, craziness, mental falling to bits, all of which landed on him of course. But I lost sympathy with him completely when I made a (failed!) suicide attempt and was hospitalised briefly. He didn't come to see me, take me out or bring the kids to visit me for the week I was there. The doctors were horrified at his behavioiur and one said 'don't ever feel inferior to this man whatever you've done. You were ill and he is not.' That sunk in. Since then I have not even considered him a potential friend. I know that if that were him in the hospital the kids and I would have been at his bedside every day.

However he still intimidates me. A lot of it is through this astonishing arrogance (he always was v arrogant and narcissistic): he genuinely believes he is a perfect dad and citizen who can do no wrong at all. He is immune to criticism of any kind, so I don't bother. (Sometimes I do blow up and rant, which only makes hiim sneer at me more). 4 years down the line I still don't have a financial settlement, and hence a divorce decree; I have been told that is my fault, even though I make a request every 3 months. He just cannot be bothered. His life is his work and his limited time with the boys and nothing else matters, especially not me, unless I threaten the arrangements he has made to suit himself.

I sometimes wonder if the stress of my breakdown and the divorce destroyed what was good about him completely. And I do feel bad for that. Make no mistakes I am not an easy person or coparent either- bipolar disorder is horrible and sometimes I act out. But no way would I try to railroad him the way he has me. And I would never denigrate him as a parent or suggest that the kids prefer me (as he has to me, several times).

I'd have liked a career, Mama, but I've really given up. The second job was nothing like the first, so it's easier to give up now :(. It's pretty clear I'm going nowhere being p/t and not available 5 days a week to counsel students, have meetings and sign forms. With my depression and stress, my writing skills and concentration have deteriorated, so I don't produce good research much anymore. I want to keep writing but have been too depressed lately to do much anyhow. I spend most of my days when the kids are not here in a bit of a catatonic state, just feel like an empty vessel. It often seems that with my breakdown and the divorce my life ended and I am in this strange sad zombie world. It's only the kids company that helps. And often (like today) I am snappy and grumpy with them too :(

Sadly being a bit bonkers I don't have many friends. The ones I do have are spread out over the country. My family are not malicious but odd and detached so not much help either. I am very alone and that doesn't help with the madness let me tell you. I talk to myself more and more these days:D

Mama I know and think he would lie in court, btw. He is a practised barrister, not in family law, but he's used to acting (ergo lying) in court. He is arrogant enough to see his 'rights' as the greater good for himself and 'his' boys, therefore he would see it as within his rights to lie.

He lied in my face to a mediator about me being 'abusive' to the children. He also told her they didn't really love me, were scared of me, preferred their nanny etc. I am v worried about what stories of abuse he would cook up. Easy to turn a court against someone diagnosed with bipolar, people think we are dangerous don't they?

He has however undermined himself by 'allowing' me 50:50 residence and not actually making abuse complaints to social services etc. Also my eldest in particular would not substantiate his complaints. I do think however that the boys may have a better time with him than me, cos he is happy and not grumpy and depressed. :(

Really at times I do feel so down and just want to end all this crap forever. But it would hurt the boys too much. For myself, I just wouldn't bother any more with this half-life.

I'm not attempting to be sympathetic to your ex, who sounds godawful, but I wonder if it helps to look at it from the perspective of what it would be like if he gave up work and then wanted to increase his level of residence on the same grounds. Equally what if you were to use a nanny to help out during the days when you have residence? That would be your choice.

I accept that it is ridiculous to have children cared for by a nanny when they have a parent available to do it but ultimately how he structures the childcare during his days is his business. Plus it seems like throwing your lives back together because he would be dependent on you being available to do his childcare, which I don't think makes for a harmonious divorce.

I think unless you think your children are being harmed by the care provided by him, I'd concentrate more on what you want to do with the next phase of your career and ensuring the needs for your mental wellbeing are catered for. I wouldn't give the slightest toss what your ex thinks about any decision you may take to look for other work, that is none of his concern.

Sorry - I truly hope this doesn't sound like unsympathetic advice. I think I remember some of your story from last year. I just wanted to put a slightly different perspective on what's effectively a request to vary an established pattern of residence.

How old are your children? Your DH will have to explain to them why they must be with their nanny rather than their mum who is only 20 mins away.

Btw I should say I cross-posted with your last two posts, domesticgodless, so mine don't reflect on what you say in them.

I can kind of see where he is coming from. Given the fact that you are no longer together he sounds as if he wants to keep things as separate as possible.

This can be a good thing in terms of stability for the children.

dg you sound super and I hope you can find something to do that you find fulfilling - if you were not working could you undertake some independent research/publishing at your own pace?
life sounds v hard at the moment, sorry you feel so alone and that you ex appears to be so vengeful. it might be worth taking advice about the arrangements with the children but be kind to yourself and take things in manageable stages. don't know a lot about bp, are you on medication and is this helping?

i also x posted but I think what tribpot has to say is v sensible

well I have actually had legal advice already. my barrister has said that no court in the land is likely to award daytime custody to a nanny. And the kids are clear they want me to care for them in the daytime and not her. If they were happier with the situation with her, I wouldn't be 'intruding' onto it.

This is my legal advice and that is what I am acting on. I didn't follwo it before because I was desperate to try and see if I could keep my job.

Why should he have 50% custody if he is not actually doing his own childcare? And if the arrangement effectively renders me unable to keep my job so I end up unemployed anyway? Really???

I guess those of you who are sympathetic to him probably think I should just bugger off and get another job. I will not get one in the field I have been training for and working in ffor 10 years. Do you think I should just take work as a secretary or something then, to keep him happy? Cos it is not making the kids happy to be with a nanny they don't like 3 days a week.

I am not sure about the 'separate' thing tbh. I have had my mental health and career destroyed by all this. I have to receive texts, emails and calls from him all the time regarding bits and pieces of the kids property and the various arrangements.

he has kept the house and all the friends cos I am the weird loony I guess. I have pretty much nothing left. And so I have to sit waiting for my kids for 3/4 days a week now? That seems like bollocks to me when they would prefer to be with me.

Believe me if they didn't I would accept it.

TheCrackFox eldest is nearly 9 and very vocal that he prefers to be with me. He can't stand his nanny- whom stbxh has kept on for 3 years because she is 'efficient' and therefore convenient to him.

Re. the separate thing-- if he's so sensible and wants us disentangled why the f* hasn't he actually responded yet to my requests for an actual divorce?

he has delayed and impeded the entire process. All he cares about is control of 'his' children (when it is convenient for him of course. He can't manage more than he already does eg after 7 3 nights a week and until 8 am and then Sundays).

I can't believe that people on here really think my children are better off in the situation they are in. Ah well nothing I can do about anything I guess. I am nagging my (useless) solicitor to get something to court and the judge can make the decision; then I will abide by it and at least it will be final and I can get on with things.

tbh tribpot I'd be delighted if my ex cut down his working hours to look after the kids and I would happily help him to do this.

I have already offered. i think we would have to move out of London though as without his full time salary and just on mine we couldn't afford to live here. So I understand why he must continue on his career path. But mine has been destroyed and for that reason I am now available to care for the children. So why cant' I?

We are not 'separate' and never can be as he has forced a coparenting arrangement on me which has had devastating efffects on my life and at any rate all the research on shared residence shows it is ONLY appropriate when the parents collaborate and take eachother's issues on board.

If he had wanted me to be able to keep working we could have agreed to mutually relocate to a place commutable for him and where I could have got to work more easily and still seen the kids. But he refused because he does not care about making his arrangement workable for me; it is all about him. He has kept his life pretty much exactly the same as it was before the separation (cant' even be bothered to divorce me).

I have to say I am losing the will to fight this. I woke up thinking of how best to kill myself, and can't get the thought out of my mind. I am completely isolated and my family are in denial about how bad things are for me. My father thinks I should leave London and just work and 'wait for the kids to come back to me'. I think they see me as a failed parent cos of my MH issues and the fact I couldn't 'keep' stbxh, was unfaithful and promiscuous etc. And I suppose they are right.

I was vile and grumpy to both kids and stbxh yesterday and I feel I don't deserve to live any more nor to I want to live in this shithole trap of a life. But I know they would probably prefer their shit mother to a dead one so for now I suppose I keep going.

dg, I don't think anyone wants to be sympathetic to your ex but we don't know either of you, so can only go on the facts laid out here. I don't think anyone thinks that it is reasonable you should have to forfeit your career or your children. Your last two jobs sound terrible, though - clearly you need to rethink what you do. Perhaps a period off work is the right thing to help you recharge your batteries but realistically you need to work, I assume?

None of us can say whether your children are better off in the situation they are in. The only point I was making was that, all other factors (which we don't know about) aside, he has as much right to day-to-day parenting as you do. He has as much right to buy in childcare to manage his dual responsibilities for work and parenting as any of us do. However, I agree it is ludicrous to have a nanny look after your children when you are available to do so but you have shared residency. And your availability to provide childcare during the day is a very recent change of circumstance. If he suddenly announced he was giving up work and thus could have the kids all week, would you honestly want him to establish de facto full-time residency that way?

I understand that you are in an incredibly difficult place, with an ex who I am quite sure is a controlling wanker, and is using this as a stick to beat you up with. But objectively you are in the same situation he is; neither of you can now claim the other's childcare arrangements are inadequate because you allowed them for the previous four years. He can't say you are an unfit mum (despite attempts to do so) and equally you can't argue the nanny arrangement is unfit either. Your intention to give up your career may or may not be a permanent decision; from an outside perspective only time will tell.

This is not a battle I would fight right now. I would establish your change of circumstance and then seek a change in the residency arrangements. I fully understand your frustration with the situation; I would feel exactly the same.

Sorry dg we have crossed again. You are not a shit mother and your children certainly would not be better off with you dead. You need to get yourself the kind of help we can't provide on MN; is there anyone you can call today?

Well, I 'allowed' the previous arrangements because I was desperately trying to secure some sort of future for myself (I have no pension, etc....) but I made it clear to him that this was an uphill battle and at some point I might end up without work. As I now am.

He imposed the current 50:50 shared residency arrangement through threats and intimidation, btw. I never wanted it. I should have fought harder but was too ill to do so.

Please bear in mind that a weekday/weekend arrangement is still shared residency and that if he has the entire weekend with them he would effectively have more time than he does now. I don't think he will like that though cos his Saturday night is for getting incredibly pissed and stoned with mates and then he sleeps most of Sunday, then goes to work at 3pm to get ready for his week.

To be honest I don't think I am here to make life convenient for him and I am not going to carry on doing so. If he wants real 50:50 care perhaps he shoudl consider actually doing the care himself?

Academic jobs are just like this, tbh. Massive overwork, then in the 'holidays' you are supposed to produce books and articles. Sounds easy but isn't and I am too depressed to work atm.

At any rate, I am going to see the same barrister again. He said I have a very good case for weekday residency and/or at least care of the children during his working hours particularly as I've been unable to find work within a reasonable commuting distance and have clearly tried (have applied for 6/7 jobs in London but not even an interview).

Sadly tribpot I've really tried to get help and feel completely ignored by both professionals and people in my life. This is why in desperation I end up on here spewing out my woes.

The most help I've ever been given is 6 sessions of CBT and one stint in a mental health hospital/rehab centre when I attempted suicide.

I am very suicidal again today and know I need help but equally I have no hope of getting any. Believe me I've tried, including sitting in Psychiatric A and E for 6 hours only to be sent home cos I am not 'actively suicidal', just obsessed with it. I don't look mad, take drugs, drink too much or cut myself and I appear to hold down a job (until recently) and childcare duties so I don't think I am seen as any sort of emergency requiring treatment.

It really feels as if my life is over; I feel like an animated corpse just going through the motions. I know that this is severe depression.

Medication does not appear to work for me.

I do know that the kids are probably better off with me alive even if I don't get to spend much time with them and when I do I am a miserable or angry person. I didn't like my own mother much but I would have missed her forever if she killed herself and no doubt blamed myself and I know I should not do that to them.

It's just that my life is such a complete wreck and I wish all the time that it were over and I would not have to wake up again.

:( I can't think what to suggest to help, dg, except to speak to Samaritans at least and get to your GP tomorrow?

OP you need some serious help actual legal advice and representation,as well as medical.
I have apsolutly no doubt that what you are saying is true I also agree that he's an arse but you must understand that it's not good to be careing for your children whilst your concidering topping yourself,god forbid he ever thought that to be the case he would so be able to use it against you

Yeah Sock he does try to use it against me, however I am not actively suicidal as I know that the kids need me. I was confessing my private despair in the only place i can do so. And this is a particularly terrible time. How would you feel if literally everything in your life fell apart? And it was pretty much your own fault too...

As far as I know there is no policy of not allowing people to care for their children beecause they have private suicidal thoughts. No one except MN and my GP knows of my feelings. There are a lot of mothers on here feeling the same, are they being told they're not fit to look after their kids? (Sorry I know that is an exaggeration of what you're trying to say, just making a general point). My kids certainly don't feel like that believe me. I feel better in their company although god knows I'm no perfect mother. I have been assessed a couple of times as fit to care for my kids (one time I actually 'turned myself in' for an assessment following stbxh's accusations of 'child abuse'). And if I am fit to care for them 50% of the time as even he concedes then I am fit to care for them more than that and more fit than a nanny they don't like.

I realise my solicitor is shit and I need a far better one. The barrister she referred me to seemed more with it.

If I could just sort out a more settled life, I think I would feel better. Not great but better.

I meant to say also thanks for the concern from people on here. In my real life it really seems no one gives a shit but on here people validate the fact that my problems are real and it does help. I feel a bit stronger today; still depressed but I know I am lucky to have wonderful kids and not to be in poverty and struggling like a lot of women on here.

No advice - I really wouldn'tknow where to start.

Just wanted to wish you strength and luck. I hope you get a better barrister. I am sure your children's wishes will be taken into account. 9 is old enough to have an opinion and of course you are going to better than a nanny they dislike.

The barrister is actually OK. He was the one who told me that barring abuse (which H failed to prove of course) there is pretty much no way a court would allow nanny care from 8-7 when I am available and the kids clearly prefer me. 9 year old is very vocal about his preference as I've said. H's nanny is a grumpy nightmare so i look OK in comparison :D

He did say it might have been different if H had been able to pick up at more of a normal time or could have got grandmother care etc but an all-day nanny would not be seen to be on. I was pleased to hear this as it seems right in principle even if it doesn't end up applying to me. 8-7 is the entire day for children, he literally sees them just to give them a bedtime story (they said to me the other day 'we get more time with you mum cos dad is always working'). The 5 year old's preference also seems to be for me although he is less vocal about it, just tends to echo big brother :D

We shall see eh. If the judge says no, he says no and I still have my fab boys 3 days a week and H cannot make me work and not see them (barrister was also clear that with my MH problems and clear attempts to get work in London making it obvious that I would need to take deskilled employment or retrain if I were to get work here, there is no way that H can have the 'clean break' he has requested (this is why he won't divorce me- cos I won't agree to that :D). In fact he called the idea of a clean break in this case 'delusional' :D (H earns 10 times more than me atm!!)