Shared residence order: 4 and 2 yr old DCs

[WishIWasRimaHorton]

I was in court this week for a residence case. The magistrates have ruled there must be shared residence. The chilren are DS (4) and DD (2).

The split of nights is 8 with me; 6 with their dad.

I am in the pits of despair, but this isn't about me. It's about the kids.

I have to try and make it work, even though I can see the anxiety and distress this causes them. In particular I have to accept that, every other week, they are with their dad for 4 nights (5 days). This means that they won't see me for 5 days in a row.

I am terrified of the impact of the constant upheaval and to-ing and fro-ing on the children. I am dreading my daughter's anxiety and distress whenever she separates from me or when she thinks I am leaving the room. I am dreading my son's face pressed up against the car window, tears streaming down it, when it is time to go to daddy's.

Can anyone tell me how I can make this work? I feel like I have failed the children by not being able to give them a permanent stable home when they are so little. If they were 12 and 14, or even 8 and 10, it wouldn't seem so bad. But they are tiny still. What will all this upheaval and uncertainty do to them?

counselling will help - let it all out there and also ask for strategies -say you looking for help in dealing with all this

"very young children need their mum more than their dad."

i think you know that isnt true.
they may get more/better? care from one parent. one may be more up to it.

in cases where mum ha PND it is up to the dad to step in for example.

in this case i dont think anyone doubts that dad appears to be scoring points etc and isnt working with the op; and it doesnt seem to make sense i do know a separated couple where dad comes to babysit in her house etc. it works for them. but that wont work here for various reasons....

but - a court has ruled and that is situation for now.

op need to sit back, go with what has been ordered, maybe get someone to report the house to see if HV/Ss do decide it is neglect - and see if in fact the dc settle or if after six months it is proving a disaster .

record how children are what they say about dad etc. without prompting.

I don't know any mother in real life who wants or wanted 50-50 shared residency.

I don't know any mother in real life who doesn't think that young children need their mother more.

I don't know why it isn't more openly admitted on MN.

sincitylover - thank you. it helps to know that i am not going totally bonkers. the only thing i really want is my kids. and i know that i am never going to have them in the way that i want them. never again. believe me, if i had realised how truly awful this was going to be, i would never have left their father. i was so desperately unhappy (currantbun knows this - she has 'known' me for nearly 6 years now). but if i had had a crystal ball and could see into the future, i would have found another way of living through this. even if it meant separating but living in the same house.

cestlavielife - i had PND both times. terribly with DS. ex took no time off work to help and did no more of the care. all he did was phone my parents (who live 2 hours drive away) and say 'please talk to your daughter'. so in my case, PND did not make him step up to the plate. the only thing that did, paradoxically, was me leaving.

there is a lot of evidence to suggest that the maternal bond is key in the emotional development of young children. if that bond is interrupted (through bad PND, neglect, etc), the children will suffer a degree of trauma. same as if their mother dies or leaves when they are young. i know this will be disputed (no doubt by latemates and others). and nowadays it's not the done thing to talk about young children needing their mothers. but the studies reported that this was the case, even when the mother was not the primary carer. the trauma will be of varying degrees of severity. it may just result in loss of self confidence, low self esteem (and who doesn't suffer to a degree with those anyway - apart from my ex, obviously). but it can lead to inability to form solid relationships which can lead to abusive relationships etc.

and before anyone says it - i am not saying that everyone whose mother dies in childhood or who is abandoned is going to end up in prison. although i guess i may as well, because that is how it will be interpreted.

i think mine needed me more because my exP wasnt up to the job.

but i see my sister with 18 month old and her H from day one is very much an equal parent and I would no way put mum above dad. they are entirely equal.

so mothers may "think" that - but it isnt the truth

wishiwas -your ex is not a "normal" father/parent, clearly.

and separating but living in same house would have worn you down too.

rock and hard place. - but you are free of him in a way and that has to be good.

"I don't know any mother in real life who wants or wanted 50-50 shared residency.

I don't know any mother in real life who doesn't think that young children need their mother more.

I don't know why it isn't more openly admitted on MN."

Because we all want to believe that Dad's are just as good as parenting as Mother's. We don't want to appear sexist and backward.

Statistically most lone parents are women, I'm sure some would say that is because society has made it more acceptable or something but in RL I have known a lot of single parents and most of the time the Father simply hasn't stepped up to the mark.

I think you only have to look at nature to see that females are the carers and nurturers and males are the hunter gatherers. Yes we are human and have emotions and are not animals but I think the instincts are still there.

All I can say is if a man had said something like "Oh kids should be with their dad more than their mums" they'd probably be pitchforks and riots on the forums as the poor guy is beaten to a pulp in the feminist onslaught that would follow.

Plus I dare say if a man posted "I don't want my ex to have shared care of the children because her house is filthy and she uses a nanny when at work" I guess most of the replies will be along the lines of "Suck it up and man up!"

maybe, niceguy2, part of it stems from the fact that, when we were together, he did SFA in helping with the kids. and rather than getting home to spend time with his very young kids, he still works late and leaves it till the last possible minute to get home before the nanny clocks off. maybe if i felt it was more about him and the kids and less about it NOT being about me and the kids (ie if we was truly doing it for them, and not just so that i didn't have them), i would be more able to accept it.

but most likely, as you say, i just need to 'man up' and stop being so irrational and anti-men.

Saying that young children need their mums more is unfashionable but there is some truth in it in most cases.

I feel very strongly that young children need an attachment to a primary carer in their early life. My nephew was adopted as a 3 year old after his first adoption failed and he spent time with several foster carers. He is now 11 and lovely but is so screwed up by his early childhood experiences. He has been expelled from 2 schools and is now in a special school.

Niceguy2 - I have come across some fab single dads in my teaching career and am aware that you really have an uphill struggle. I do think that on the whole young children need their mums more but in some cases (as I imagine it is in your case) the mum just isn't up to the job and dad's willing to become the main carer probably have to work even harder so please don't take any offence.

mrs colour,

That was so well put and just how I feel.

I have dated a single Dad in the past and do know of several single Dad's all of whom do a sterling job. Nearly always it is because the Mother simply washed her hands of the kids and the Father HAD to step up and all have been just as good as a Mother as a primary carer.

Sorry I've joined this conversation very late, but I'm so glad to hear what 'mrscolour' has said re attachment to primary carers. I believe so much it's important that children have a constant figure in their early years but also keep regular contact with the non resident parent. But that has to be in a way that the children can cope with.
'Wisiwasrimahorton' I'm so sorry to hear what you're going through & I would feel the same in your position. Please try not to feel like you've let you children down - they will know that you haven't & you love them.
I hope you can find a way to make it work....

Wish

Why dont you post over in legal? see if anyone there can offer you another perspective? There are some knowledgeable people on there too.

This is so awful for you, I can barely believe it.

RimaHorton your ex sounds like a manipulative abusive wanker. Yes, of course some dads are fantastic and shared care suits those cases perfectly and will benefit their children. BUT in your particular case it really does sound like it's all about him and the only reason he's gone down this path is because of the pain it will cause you rather than because he actually wants to spend the time with your DCs.

I understand that lots of people feel strongly about shared care and feel the need to justify dads being good parents. But in this case it doesn't sound like it is in the best interests of the children.

Rima - have you posted about any of this on the relationships board? Have you read the Lundy Bancroft book Why does he do that? If not, you might find it enlightening reading.

I'm so sorry to hear how hard you're finding this and I hope the counselling helps you. How do you communicate with your ex at the moment? Can you try and detach yourself emotionally when you talk to him? Try and let it wash over you? I wonder whether if he doesn't see you reacting the way he wants if things might change over time.

thanks all.

i had some counselling tonight with a counsellor i saw when our marriage was in its death throes. she is fairly amazing actually. and we uncovered some of why my reaction to the children being away is so strong. without needing or wanting to go into any detail, my own mum was very unavailable during my childhood. and although i look back on it dispassionately and thought i didn't blame her for her absences, i had obviously made a pact with myself that i wouldn't do the same to my kids. thus, when i am then forced with a situation where i face long periods without them, i feel like i am abandoning them and hate myself for it.

malinkey - since the counsellor also counselled ex and me jointly, she is well aware of his character and the methods he uses. she has been very helpful and has made me understand why, with my childhood as it was, i specifically chose ex to marry. he mirrored in so many ways what my mum did to me when i was growing up, and my emotional response to him was the same as it was to my mum (keep head down, don't rock the boat and whatever you do - keep the peace).

she and i are going to work on me dealing with the abandonment issues i have from my childhood, in the hope that i can make the best out of this situation.

of course, i am feeling calm right now as my babies are tucked safely up in bed asleep. tomorrow they go to their dad's for 2 nights, so my demons will be attacking me again, and i will not be calm. until then, though, i can pretend i am at peace with my conscience.

oh and - i don't talk to ex at all. so he has no idea what is going on in my head. we email / text and have very very terse conversations on the phone. when we are together with the kids, we just talk about what is going on there and then. we haven't communicated properly in years anyway - he simply doesn't do 'talking'.

Well, I'm glad you have a good counsellor to help you through this. Just make the most of the time when you have your babies with you and try and do something to keep yourself busy when they're with their dad.

It's not your fault that you're in this situation. Your DCs know you love them even when they're not with you.

I hope you can get some more legal advice and see if you can get somewhere with it. Don't give up - I understand people telling you to accept the situation for your own peace of mind but is there is a way you can accept it for now but try to see if there is something you can do to change it in the meantime?

you are not abandoning them - and on some level they must love their father as is only one they know. little children do.
it is something which has been taken out of your hands and you will be able to explain that to them when they a bit older and when they ask.

you will be in a stronger position if you go with it for three to six months then have good evidence to present

and just stick to talking only about the kids - how you feel is none of his business and is yours to deal with (how he feels is nothing to do with you and his problem) how they been, any health needs, whatever. keep it business like. if he thinks he has emotional control over you -well that is what he wants.

i very much doubt that i will be in a stronger position in n months' time

it is abundantly clear to me that what is important to magistrates is not what is important to most mothers - that their children are given the tender, loving care they need at the times they need it. unless ex abuses the kids or burns the house down around his own ears (god forbid - although he never replaces smoke alarm batteries, so it's not impossible), nothing that he does will be bad enough to warrant apportioning me any more time, i'm sure.

the best i can hope is that he somehow has a change of heart - either his girlfriend distracts him from the current tact of trying to control me emotionally. or she may get up the duff or something similar.

of course, what is far more likely is that it will trundle along with the kids being dragged backwards and forwards with their little packages of stuff every few days.

i had a horrible realisation today. DD doesn't know what 'home' means. she keeps saying 'take this home?' when she means 'can i take this with me?' (when we got out). so she thinks taking things with her when she goes out somewhere.

she doesn't know where home is. can you imagine how that makes me feel?

(when we go out) not got

and 'so she thinks taking things with her when she goes out somewhere is taking things home'

sorry - tired. should go to bed. won't sleep though.

Are you going to appeal this decision?
For your DCs sake you definitely should. As you say, they are far too young for this arrangement.
It sounds like you have grounds to appeal - in that the case was not heard with all the facts before it ie a qualified report on the DCs needs.
Ignore the -'it's the courts decision' lot on here - you know this is not right for your children so fight it.
Feel absolutely fuming for you at the selfish senselessness of this situation.
Get a barrister, keep a diary of how it's affecting the DCs, get Nanny's statement of the DCs emotional states/nursery staff's views and get back to court.

WishIWasRimaHorton, I don't like to do this, but here goes ...

As a soon-to-be female NRP who will have shared parenting and residency (at the moment, OH and I still live together), I have never read a thread that has made me so angry and incensed. I work later than my husband, my hours are crazy compared to his. Yet, at the moment, it is me that DS is closest to. It is me he runs to when he is upset. It is me he asks for over and over and over again, and cries for when I'm not in the room. It is me he is closest to. I'm the one who buys him clothes, cooks his food, sorts out care with his childminder, gets up with him at night. This is despite the fact that he sees my husband more than he does me. Based on your logic and the supposed incomparable awesomeness of being a mother, my DS ought to live with me primarily.

I'm sorry, but face-time does NOT (and should not) necessarily dictate to whom the child is closest. And when he does cry for me, as upsetting as it is, I have to let him be with his father. He is a parent also, he loves his son as much as I do, and they deserve to have a close relationship which need not be at the expense of mine. Taking this attitude means that DS may miss me, but he soon forgets and spends so much enjoyable time with his father who cares for him in a different way to how I do (eg he may not be as quick as I am to wipe DS's nose or cut his nails), but more than adequately.

If his home is as filthy as you say, then refer the matter to social services. Unfortunately, unless he is seriously risking their helath (which it sounds like from what you've said but does not tally with the inaction of the authorities), then his house need not be as spick and span as yours. I do not agree with children living in a filthy environment, but I do not subscribe to the view that a completely spick and span house is non-negotiable (if it were, so many of us would fail at the first hurdle!)

As for the kids being "dragged backward and forward", that is your take on things and if you show them how upset you are, of course they will feed off that. There is no need for it to be as traumatic for them as you are making out. If you and your ex can afford a nanny, then you can afford for the kids to have enough clothes and belongings at each household, removing the need to drag large/multiple items between both of your places.

Don't martyr yourself - it is not fair to you, your ex, or your children. Rather, see what you can do to make things easier for them instead of insisting that their lives will be a misery now and forever after if they are not living with you full-time Monday to Friday.

My DD who is 2 and a half knows that there is Daddy's home, and Mummy's home. Other than maybe one toy she brings along with her ( ' who's coming with you to daddy's then ? ) she has toys, clothes, books, drawing and painting stuff ete etc etc at both houses, and she seems quite happy with the arrangement.

TBA - you aren't in this situation yet. You don't know how your child will actually react. Be angry with me if you want to. It doesn't change how my children are reacting to this situation.

and comment again on the logistics of maintaining duplicate amounts of toys at both locations once you are in the situation. it isn't feasible and it isn't desirable. the children cannot have 2 lots of everything. i can't afford it and i don't believe it's right for the children either to have duplicates of everything. of course they have toys here and clothese here too, as they do at their father's. but when you are faced with the distress of the particular toy NOT being in the 'right place' at the right time then come back and make that statement.

DS goes into a flurry of absolute mania prior to every handover suddenly getting distressed that particular articles are transferred with him (beanbag / stool that he is sitting on). of course he doesn't really want them - it's his insecurities coming out. and it is hideous to see this happening to your own child several times a week.

maybe you will be spared all this though. i hope for your own sake (and your DS's) that you are.