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Shared residence order: 4 and 2 yr old DCs

139 replies

WishIWasRimaHorton · 21/05/2011 16:12

I was in court this week for a residence case. The magistrates have ruled there must be shared residence. The chilren are DS (4) and DD (2).

The split of nights is 8 with me; 6 with their dad.

I am in the pits of despair, but this isn't about me. It's about the kids.

I have to try and make it work, even though I can see the anxiety and distress this causes them. In particular I have to accept that, every other week, they are with their dad for 4 nights (5 days). This means that they won't see me for 5 days in a row.

I am terrified of the impact of the constant upheaval and to-ing and fro-ing on the children. I am dreading my daughter's anxiety and distress whenever she separates from me or when she thinks I am leaving the room. I am dreading my son's face pressed up against the car window, tears streaming down it, when it is time to go to daddy's.

Can anyone tell me how I can make this work? I feel like I have failed the children by not being able to give them a permanent stable home when they are so little. If they were 12 and 14, or even 8 and 10, it wouldn't seem so bad. But they are tiny still. What will all this upheaval and uncertainty do to them?

OP posts:
ChippingIn · 21/05/2011 20:36

An appeal might not work - but not appealing wont change anything.

It is a horrible situation :(

I don't think shared care is the best idea for most children. I'm all for both parents seeing as much of the kids as they can, but I believe kids are better off with one main home. But if the parents agree to it then that's up t them and they have to make it work for the kids BUT when it means one parent at home missing the kids and kids being looked after by a nanny on the other parents time for no good reason it's crap.

... and for them to be subject to that squalor is horrible.

I hope you appeal and I hope you get a magistrate with a whole brain this time.

I would get another solicitor as well, this one sounds half arsed.

CurrantBun · 22/05/2011 12:05

I know you from another forum but thought I'd reply on here as there seem to have been lots of useful advice and empathetic responses already. This situation is unbearably difficult for you, and I think probably the only option is to go back to court and appeal. But you need to get tough.

At present you do pretty much all of the "parenting" and that means that exDH gets an easy ride. It will be very hard, but you need to let him send DS to school without dinner money, let him forget when it's swimming or PE, let him forget to fill in the forms that come home. Then document it all when the school contacts you. The nanny is a difficult one. On the one hand, I'd be inclined to keep her because she is a constant in the children's lives and they have a positive relationship with her. On the other hand, the only way you're effectively going to demonstrate exDH's parental incompetence is to let her go. Then how will he cope with the period between school finishing and getting home from work? Maybe then he'll understand that parenting is about sacrifices on BOTH sides.

I would also involve everyone you can. The HV needs to see the state of your ex's house and as DD is under her care, presumably there should be no objection from exDH to her going there if need be. Yes, on its own the state of the house won't be enough to change the care order the courts have decided on, but along with other evidence it might be a useful addition.

DO NOT make exDH's life easier by allowing him access to the children on his non-contact days. Don't even offer him that option. You need to make his life as difficult as possible.

And stay strong. You will not be any use to your children if you are suicidal. Get help if you need it.

gillybean2 · 22/05/2011 13:10

Hi OP
It sound slike you're going through a very tough time for which you have my sympathies.

First off, from what I'm reading here there is a big confusion about what shared residency means. Shared residency means that both parents are considered and treated equally. They both have the right to be parents in every sense and are not reliant on the other parent to give them info and able to make decisions without one parent being unilaterally 'in charge' of it all.
Shared parenting is NOT about the dc spending equal time with both parents. In fact you can have a shared parenting arrangement with much less than half the time with one parent although it is more usual to have a fairly equal split, particularluy when you take school hols into account.
Please look here for more info home.clara.net/spig/

Personally I think shared parenting is usually best for parents and dc. Everyone accepts both parents are equal and noone is more of a parent than the other. Dc get to spend good amounts of time with both parents and benefit from feeling they have two equal homes and aren't just visiting their NRP. However I don't think that shared time is necessarily best just because you have shared residency.

Once you've read more on shared parenting, and given the amount of time your ex was seeing the dc during the day etc, I think perhaps you may agree that shared parenting is OK for your situation. What you should probably be appealing against is not shared residency but the time split that the court has ordered to go with it.

So get your case together on that basis and yes definitely get your case together on the basis that the court have made a decision without all the facts and not in the best interests of the dc involved.

Your nanny sounds wonderful. Do you employer her and pay all her wages. or does your ex give you money to pay his half/share of her, or do you both employer her separately? I think you need to agree with her that you're going to let her go and explain it's not about her at all but you need the situation to improve for the dc and that her being there is facilitating the ex in his strict time rules. From what you've said it sounds like she will agree and understand. Let her know you will give her a glowing reference and do what you can to help her find a new placement.

Tell your ex you are letting nanny go, explain that you don't need her any more as you can do all your work while dc are in his care and can continue to do school drop off and pick ups on your contact days so she's no longer needed by you. Say you have given her notice but that he can of course come to an agreement that he continues to employ her himself. Or another nanny of course, but that must be something he arranges, agrees entirely with the nanny and he must be 100% responsible for the employmentm, contract, wages, tax etc in future for whoever he employs.
Also remind him that he will need to sort out what his arrangements will be for the summer holidays and that he has presumably booked some time off work for this.

Tell your nanny that you have no problem with her continuing to work for ex but she must negotiate a contact with him and he will be responsible for all her salary and tax and you will no longer be able to correct his mistakes or be her employer.
Given that he will only pay her for the days he employs her it seems likely she will look for a full time position elsewhere and can use that as an excuse to go. If you can afford to pay her in lieu of notice then really do consider doing that as soon as you can.

Your ex needs to take responsibility fo rparenting his dc. He wanted equal residency, he wanted a substantial amount of time with the, now he has to show he means it and can actually achieve it.

Yes it may be tough for a few weeks, but you need to show your ex that a consequence of him wanting to share his children and have so much time is that he has to take responsibility for caring for them, or arranging care, in his time. Don't step in and help him out, tell him clearly he has to accept the responsibilty and get home from work to do school pick ups and drop off etc and arrange work around his childcare (just like you are)

Make sure you are clear with him that you are happy to negotiate on the hours/days you have dc if he is unable to do school pick ups. But be clear that this should be a permanent arrangement not an adhoc situation and you expect him to make the necessary arrangements to parent his children in teh time he has said he will take care of them.

If he struggles suggest that maybe it would be better to look at the time split again with you having them more in the afternoons/overnight in term time and him spending a bit longe rwith them in the school holidays maybe.
Remind him that if he is serious about wishing to parent his children equally he will hve to find a work/life balance to allow him to do that and not to simply rely on you to pick it all up because you are now both shared parents and so he needs to be responsible for his share...

Definitely appeal and really push for what you think is best for dc. I think you'll get further appealing the time split, especially as you have already given many reasons above why you feel it is not in the best insterests of your dc. Nanny is allowing court to agree to the time split, but if she goes I think you strength your case considerably that he can not maintain the contact level he is requesting and that a new nanny/childcare isn't in t eh best interests of the dc when they have a parent who is perfectly willing and able and at home ready to care for them.
Good luck.

WishIWasRimaHorton · 22/05/2011 14:39

gillybean and currantbun - thank you

i have had a realisation prompted by your posts - if i drop my working days back to 3 (which is what i worked before we employed the nanny), then under the current regime, i would only need childcare on one day a fortnight. so if i said i no longer needed to employ the nanny, then i could a) save myself a HUGE amount of money and b) make ex's life very difficult indeed.

i would be financially no worse off by dropping my days as the nanny costs so much. we employ her jointly and pay her equal amounts each month.

i would feel hideous at letting her go but if i appeal and it's not successful, i think that that is what i will have to do.

OP posts:
Didyouever · 22/05/2011 16:45

Does he pay any child maintenance?

Ishani · 22/05/2011 17:04

You need to get rid of the nanny now not after an appeal, the sooner the childrens lives are settled the better for all of you this cannot drag on and on.

WishIWasRimaHorton · 22/05/2011 17:37

didyouever - no he doesn't

ishani - i think you are right. but will i not be accused of not having the children's best interests at heart if i let her go now? they have a bond with her, or at least DD does. DS less so as he sees much less of her (he's at school). if i make this unilateral decision, will it not be held against me?

OP posts:
WishIWasRimaHorton · 22/05/2011 17:41

actually - i can probably manage to work 4 days and wangle the childcare somehow. i would need 2 days one week, 1 day the next. so technically i probably don't need to drop any days. which would make me even more quids in. and that's without any maintenance from ex (which i know he should technically pay me...)

OP posts:
Ishani · 22/05/2011 17:43

I've been through the family court and it's utterly random in my experience things you think are completely in nobody but the childs best interests, like nearly bankrupting yourself to keep the children in private education are not given any credit and yet a few emails a year are praised to the high heavens. But in this case the nanny through no fault if her own is standing between you and your DC's so the gloves have to come off. The nanny is an employee not a parent she should have no bearing on this case.

gillybean2 · 22/05/2011 18:25

I'm afraid that, much as the children are attached to her, that your nanny is only an employee at the end of the day. That doesn't mean the dc have to loose touch with her, but it is not the same kind of bond that your dc should have with you or their dad. The fact that she has that bond with them and cry for you when at dad's house show they are not happy.

Anyhow you don't need a nanny any more. You can do your job around the hours of contact that have been ordered.
As I said above speak to your nanny and explain and then tell your ex that you have given her notice but if he wishes to keep employing her he must now come to his own agreement with her and deal with the contract, pay/tax etc with her. The court can't force you to keep employing a nanny. Especially as you don't even need one now!
Your ex can choose to continue with a nanny if that is what he wishes. You simply need to inform him that you no longer will be using her and that he needs to agree his own terms and conditions and a contract with her now.

You also need to sort out maintenance. He's probably thinking that his share of the nanny fee is his maintenance. Not so. Ok so the court order has stated that he will have 3 overnights on average per week. This simply means his maintenance will drop by 3/7ths of the calculation. He will still have to pay you maintenance.
This money is for your dc. Even if you can manage without it you should still sort it out. Put it in a savings account or invest it for their future if you can afford too.

So cutting your childcare costs and receivibg maintenance will make a big difference to you. Take control here and show that you mean business.

IMO a parent who ignores their financial responsibility to their child is a useless parent. You should point out to the court that he doesn't and hasn't even fullfilled that basic requirement of parental responsibility up till now! Go to the CSA. Ask them to assess him. If he is PAYE it will be straight forward. Self employed takes longer, as does anyone who completes a SATR. But they can ask to see his last SATR and base it on that.

WishIWasRimaHorton · 22/05/2011 19:26

ok thank you both. the worst thing of all re finances is that i have paid for DD's child trust fund (all of it bar a contribution from my folks - which they also do for DS) since she was born. he has never paid a penny towards hers; even though he pays the same amount as me towards DS's. have lost count of the number of times i have asked him to pay. this is just one of the ways in which he 'favours' DS over DD - there are many others.

i do now know that i need to do something totally radical to try to rescue the situation. as of sept, in order to fulfil my current obligations in respect of the kids, i would only need half a day's childcare a week for DD, and could probably get away with nothing for DS at all. i think you are both (all) right that this is probably my only way of redeeming things.

OP posts:
CurrantBun · 22/05/2011 20:09

Yes, definitely get him to start paying maintenance. If nothing else you can put it towards DD's child trust fund. I think it's awful that he 'favours' DS - eventually DD will realise this is the case and that can't be good for her self-esteem. To date you have made exDH's life far too easy for him - now it's time to get tough.

On the plus side, you sound stronger and more positive than you did in your OP. Gather your strength and fight for what you want. Sadly no-one is going to give it to you on a plate.

You do need to make sure that, through all this, you try not to communicate your stress and anxiety to your kids. That is hard, but children are very sensitive to their parents' emotions (my DS starts playing up if he senses tension between myself and DH). As hard as it is, never criticise or condemn DH in front of them. As a previous poster has said, you need to be World's Most Perfect Mother at the moment - don't give him any ammunition to use against you.

And yes, maybe a new solicitor is in order. Fresh battle, fresh troops ...

whiteandnerdy · 22/05/2011 20:25

... same casualties!

cestlavielife · 22/05/2011 21:44

to be honest i wouldnt appeal - not really sure what ti is you actually want from an appeal? unles the neglect issue squalor of his house is pushed....

personally i dont see the "he goes out towork" argument as valid - i go out to work but have residence....

but as gillybean proposed - you say to him ok - this is situation now.
as it stands, I dont need the nanny so is up to you if you need her on your days. you employ and pay her

and you cannot depend on nanny being around - she may get pregnant, get a diferent job etc at any time. it seems quite bizarre that her being constant in the dc life is taken as something to base a residence decision on - when she is not family but an employee who can leave at any time.

problem is the dc who will be messed around - and they will lose out if nanny does not stay - my dd suffered a lto when nanny of four years standing left when shewas four - and actually i supsect now that my now-ex's behaviour had a lot to do with her leaving.... but from what you saying i actually doubt she wll stick around too much longer anyway.

if you end up being called on for pick ups etc - then to not leave dc in lurch you could step in but document and then in six months or so you would go back to court andsay - look it's nonsense this regime...

Ishani · 22/05/2011 22:00

I put up with all sorts of shit because I thought my DC would gutted if the nanny left, when she did the children were delighted turned out they hated her but thought I loved her. Nannys come and go.

niceguy2 · 23/05/2011 00:49

I think an appeal would be just a hiding to nothing. There are no valid concerns here other than a dirty house which whilst disgusting is apparently not enough of a risk.

None of OP's concerns would be accepted by the court. Dad working and not home til later. Well plenty of men work....should we be only allowed to have our kids on non-working days? What about when mum works? Oh that's different, they can go in childcare then....just not with dad.....

Kids crying for mummy.....So what? My stepson cries for his mum everytime I tell him off. Should I move out?

Living in two bedrooms? Eh? I can see that one now. "Your honour, I don't think dad should have shared residence as having two bedrooms is too emotionally traumatic for my children. He can have alternate weekends as Saturday's and Sunday's are magic and kids won't be scared on those nights......"

Take it back to court and I'm afraid you'd be ripped to pieces. I'm sorry you don't like the idea of shared parenting but in this case I do think the courts have it right.

gillybean2 · 23/05/2011 02:45

The concern is that these dc are being left with the nanny when they have a parent who is perfectly able and willing to have them. Yes lots of people use childcare but it's usually because they are busy working. If mum isn't working at the time nanny has the dc then they don't need to go to the nanny...

Didyouever · 23/05/2011 06:21

So on that theory if a NRP has the every other weekend type of access, if the resident parent isn't with the children and uses some form of childcare, they shouldn't do that and the other parent should have them?

I'll agree with that.

gillybean2 · 23/05/2011 06:32

Yes I'd agree with that too.

Didyouever · 23/05/2011 06:53

OP is what you really want is the children live with you and stay at their Dad's every other weekend?

nooka · 23/05/2011 07:27

When dh and I separated we had a shared residency arrangement (informal though we didn't go to court) where the children spent half the week with me and half the week with their dad. We also had jointly arranged childcare (first a nanny and then a childminder). Our children were 4 and 5 and coped pretty well with having two homes. I wouldn't say they didn't have a permanent stable home during that period, but that they had two permanent stable homes. Of course they would have preferred to be with both of us together, but isn't that generally what all children wish?

I can totally understand the OPs distress if her children are obviously upset at leaving her, and if the nanny is telling her that the children are upset at their dads. However it has only been a week for the new arrangements and in a little while they will become accustomed to the change so the upheaval and uncertainty will decrease. For the children's sake the last thing I'd be looking to do is get rid of the nanny. Yes that may well have made the change seem more acceptable to the judge and it could be that if she hadn't been there a different decision might have been made, but it's been made now and I think that for the moment the focus should be on making things work for the children.

NB dh and I got back together after two years apart and I was talking to our children about the split recently (they are now 10 and 12). They didn't seem to have found it very traumatic, so don't assume that children will be totally traumatised by living in two homes. It can work.

Ishani · 23/05/2011 09:10

The nanny isn't needed Nooka. Why would the mother pay for childcare thather ex needs in order to keep her children away from her.

shelscrape · 23/05/2011 09:25

Appealing may not be the best way forward. I agree you need to take legal advice on the point. You may have more luck in getting the court to review the order in a couple of months time if you can provide some sort of evidence that it just does not work. For example if he asks you to have the children on your non contact days becasue he is working or going to visit friends. Keep a diary of all such requests, likewise any observed changes of behaviour in the children.

The order will have been made under the Children Act. The overacrching principle of the whole Act is that the child's interest is paramount. So, no matter how much it hurts you, observe your part of the order. The current order is going to be a huge change in routine for your children, did the court make a final order or was it an interim one to be reviwed?

shelscrape · 23/05/2011 09:27

OP - just saw your other thread about the tent .... he does seem a bit of a tit !

niceguy2 · 23/05/2011 10:07

The concern is that these dc are being left with the nanny when they have a parent who is perfectly able and willing to have them.

The problem with this as a "concern" is that if you are going to be fair, then it must cut both ways. So whenever it's OP's days and she's working and her ex decides he can have the kids, must she then hand over the kids? In theory that would be fair but is it practical? If OP is worried that the kids are being passed around like parcels then this makes things even worse.

Plus, it is entirely up to the parent if they wish to delegate their parental duties during their contact time. Whilst I understand the sentiment that it's preferable to let mum have them if dad's at work, the problem is do we want court's to really dictate when, how often and whether or not we can delegate to a nanny/childminder/babysitter/grandparents? Personally I'd rather the court left me as a father to decide what's best.

The court's are there to decide when parents cannot. In this case they've made a decision. OP doesn't like it but that's pretty much what happens in this world. Fair? I've long realised fair depends on which side of the fence you are on. OP doesn't think so. But I suspect her ex thinks its entirely fair and sensible. I think if he were here posting his side, the advice given would be quite different.