New Secondary Schools for Richmond 3

[BayJay]

Hello and welcome to the Mumsnet thread about Richmond Borough Secondary Schools. The discussion started in February 2011 in two parallel locations here and here.

In November 2011 the most active of those two threads, in Mumsnet Local, reached 1000 messages (the maximum allowed) so we continued the conversation here.

Now its May 2012 and that thread has also filled up, so the conversation will continue here ......

Copthall resident - very useful insights. I have been dealing with the state and private dilemma for a long time. You mention what Cllr Hodgins says but he says one thing and does another. If the head of education in Richmond and the Governor of RPA (that has delivered the most improved results), does not send his kids there and goes private, what example is he setting ? For state schools to succeed, you need the leading ambassadors to support them and then drive the community buy-in.

The majority from East Sheen primary are choosing state schools especially RPA.

All, apologies if we've already linked to this detailed data on Secondary School performance, but if not then it may be what Lottie is looking for.

BayJay - I find the stats on 5A to C ( E&M) very misleading. There is a massive difference an A or A and C.
The real difference between private and state becomes more apparent at A and A* levels

I confess to only half following this private/state debate because It seems to me that statistics aren't a good basis for making the decision (if you're lucky enough to even have the choice).

As others have already said, individual children aren't statistics and are going to react differently to different schools.

However, the financial impact on the family needs to be considered too. If sending your child to private school means that the family is under greater stress (working longer hours, taking in lodgers, extending mortgages, relationship breakdown etc etc) then that could easily wipe out any positive benefit that private schooling may have.

It would be really interesting to compare outcomes for children whose parents can only just afford private school to see whether those that opt to stay in the state sector and spend the money positively elsewhere (travel, tutoring, extra-curricular activities) do better. But then how do you measure 'better' anyway? By exam results, earnings, happiness?

If anyone's going to the North Kingston School update meeting tomorrow (11 October) at 7.00 pm at the North Kingston Centre, do let us know how it goes. I can't make it along unfortunately.

BayJay - what a soul searching post! Speaking to parents in my local community, there are clearly

1. Those who will go for the best state school - in Richmond and nearby out of borough
2. Those who are deciding between state and private secondary and would rather prefer state, if their questions and concerns were adequately answered
3. Those who will always go private - even if their nearby state secondary is outstanding

I think a lot of them are currently under category 2) Its a very tough call, especially for those who cannot afford the luxury of private school fees or move homes or get preference in exclusive faith schools.

Bayjay Quite, I think both state schools and private schools have advantages and disadvantages and these affect children and families differently, stereotypes and statistics aren't necessarily helpful.

Interestingly the private schools are, like State School Heads (and universities, mine anyway), condemning the speed, lack of consultation (or perhaps I should say the "True" nature of the consultation), scanty evidence supporting his ideas and political nature of the changes to the exam system. The recent HMC conferance debated this and has been gathering evidence on this GCSE debacle. Gove keeps prattling on about how he is basing his ideas on best practice in private schools, what the universities and employers want, and overseas best practise but there is no evidence of this, quite the contrary . The private Schools are reassuring parents that they will watch developments closely and are ready to abandon Gove levels to an even greater extent than they have GCSE, for IGCSE (which since their main market is International, the Cambridge Board at least, won't be affected). Sadly this sort of critisism and pressure is likely to have more political impact on Gove, if anything does, than highlighting the scary implications for state school pupils.

I agree you have to think carefully about what best suits your child. A relative used to work at Esher College and said every year they would have to deal with some very unhappy and damaged kids who came from Tiffin Schools while the Teddington School kids on the whole always seemed happy and well balanced. At last year's common entrance exams some of my son's friends were physically sick or wet themselves they were so nervous, makes you wonder if the parents had properly thought about whether they could handle the pressure of such a competitive environment. But undoubtedly eldest's peers who were of average ability and went to less academic private schools are probably in line for better results than they would get at one of the local comprehensives. It's a minefield and I don't know what the answer is, and soon have to tackle college choosing and then University (hopefully)!

Agree that too much focus on grades may not deliver a well-rounded education or happy child (so not knocking GCSE in PE at KGS or anywhere!). You've probably seen the research that says 'a comprehensive pupil with the grades BBB [at A-level] is likely to perform as well in their university degree as an independent or grammar school pupil with 2 As and a B'.

University admissions processes go much further than this to level the playing field, they use a whole range of contextual data to help predict how well a student will do on a course, not just performance in relation to school average and school performance but social and economic background (parental status, FSM etc.), SLDs, health issues etc. It isn't just that pupils who have overcome poor schooling and other disadvantages have had to be more motivated and tend to perform better, it is also that they want to have diversity on a course to enrich the debate, students who can take different perspectives etc.

Some universities have complicated algorithms (Durham have a very complicated one using the data from it's Durham tests too) and some do it qualitatively but all do all they can to assess school background and take it into account (and sometimes the school says as much by the standard of it's reference as it does in the reference). It isn't as simple as indie and grammar v state though, it is about how good the school is and the average performance of it's pupils. Top sets in some comprehensives are equivalent to some Grammar Schools and Independents, and a sixth form college in a leafy suburb like Richmond is a far cry from an inner city school.

It is also part of the reason why the ABB relaxation on student quotas (last year universities could recruit students who got ABB and above in addition to their student quota) will be ABB this year.

Copthallresident, do you know if universities take into account secondary schooling as well as sixth form/college? I have heard of a number of parents purposely sending their kids to state colleges such as Esher after years of private schooling as they think this will help them gain a place at top universities trying to increase their state school intake!

Twix Funnily enough Admissions Officers can spot and take into considerationthat someone was at private school to 16! They can be also be considering pupils that were at poorly performing schools before going on to good Sixth Form Colleges. You may not necessarily agree with the fairness of Oxbridge admissions process but this article gives an insight into just how they consider contextual data and schooling. www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/jan/10/how-cambridge-admissions-really-work

The whole point is that universities above all want pupils who will best succeed on courses, so they level the playing field but I think it highly unlikely they would have a strategy of imposing quotas on the selection process in order to meet their state/ private targets, not formally anyway, though there may be a bias in admissions officers minds. Certainly at my uni that strategy is focused on facilitating and encouraging more applications from pupils in state schools.

Some of my daughter's peers made similar moves (though mainly because of family circumstances) . You could speculate about who would or wouldn't have got in wherever but who knows? Especially with Oxbridge which is unpredictable anyway.

I definitely wouldn't say there was anything like enough certainty of an advantage for it to dictate decisions on my daughter's schooling!

Love this - "She's got low socio-economic, low-performing GCSE, low Oxbridge ? she's nearly got the full set." "Take her."

Do they look at parent's tax codes?! Regional accent?

muminlondon

Thank you, what an interesting article - surprised about the bit mentioning photos to accompany applications as don't think it is allowed any more for job applications!

I have a, quite wordy, letter from Andrew Cole, in his capacity as Chairman of the Interim Governing Body of St RR! He has written to Copthall and Tudor Gardens, Laurel and Grove Aves, Clifden and Station Road inviting us to the Open Day on 20 October. He also gives brief details of the numbers and admissions policies we already know and promises high standards of consideration and respect to neighbours and that they will promote travel to the school by public transport and "I believe the volume of traffic will be no higher and hopefully less than now" No mention of the Judicial Review, he finishes by saying that "The RACC will gradually move from Clifden Road to their campus in Richmond and there will be progressive conversion of the buildings as the school roll expands.....I will publish on the College website more details of the building programme as they emerge."

The College have just withdrawn an application to put two Portacabins in front of the old school building to house the activities (creche etc) displaced from the buildings at the back of the site by the school because the Planning Department advised them (without much resident broohaa) that they would be unacceptable in front of a building of townscape merit. That will put more pressure on space.

You can see the letter here docs.google.com/open?id=0BySGrfI8knTVWVBfMDBwb3pJems

Did the council ever respond to complaints about him voting in the scrutiny meeting having vested interests in the school?

45,000 to resit English GCSEs - must be about 10% of the entire cohort?

Interesting article in Telegraph on state v private by a local parent www.telegraph.co.uk/education/9145646/The-shocking-truth-about-state-schools-theyre-good.html

Andy Cole Diocese Rep on O&SC has become Chair of Governors is not a surprise - he has always had vested interest. But I find it difficult to believe our councillors allowed him to vote for Catholic schools - hard to call it democratic

The reason the much praised Finnish system works is because private schools were abolished in 1970. New private schools there are like our free schools - they require government consent, and in return for funding, the use of tuition fees and selective admission is prohibited, so the few that exist are faith-based or Steiner schools.

That's the only way the private sector would truly shrink and then we would have schools that serve the diversity of our community, including faith schools, operating on a level playing field.

muminlondon - I totally disagree if you are suggesting we shrink our independent sector. We should be proud of them - many of them provide world class education. So why should we not have them if they are privately funded.
I do support greater partnership between private and state sector. All state schools become outstanding, and then we will truly have a level playing field and top class education system.

muminlondon One of my daughters closest friends is Finnish and returned to their system at the same time as my daughter returned here. We have visited them and discussed the differences in the education systems in some depth. It is extremely simplistic to say it is so successful because it abolished private schools. Firstly and above all the education system is a reflection of a very egalitarian culture, that is why it abolished private schools and that is why 40% proudly go into vocational training, not because they couldn't pass exams or get into universities but because that is what 40% of people want to do, with absolutely no notion that they do so because they failed to do well at school.

Secondly Finnish teachers are recruited from the top 10% of Masters degree graduates. It is a very prestigious career and only 10 % who apply get chosen. They have the same status and pay as Doctors and Lawyers and that status and esteem is reflected in there being very little government interference in what and how they teach. Pupils are not tested or examined until they are 17. They also have only 4 hours teaching time a day, recognising teaching on your feet is exhausting and preparation is as important as the lesson itself. My daughters friend went back way ahead of her peers who only start at 7. She was very clever anyway, 3 years after arriving in a British System school with no English she absolutely shone in the book group I led. So her teachers took her aside and kept challenging her and pushing her particularly in the areas where talents and interests lie, they have the time and freedom to tailor education to the individual, and they know the individuals very well because they will follow them through the school system. She is now at the Stockholm School of Economics, top in Scandinavia and on a par with LSE.

In a way the reason our private schools succeed is because they can pay teachers more, give teachers greater freedom, give pupils more individual attention etc etc.

In any case is abolishing private schools going to make any difference to the schools which are the biggest sources of inequality in our system, the schools that serve communities that are themselves disadvantaged. Having Finnish teachers in them might......