New Secondary Schools for Richmond 3

[BayJay]

Hello and welcome to the Mumsnet thread about Richmond Borough Secondary Schools. The discussion started in February 2011 in two parallel locations here and here.

In November 2011 the most active of those two threads, in Mumsnet Local, reached 1000 messages (the maximum allowed) so we continued the conversation here.

Now its May 2012 and that thread has also filled up, so the conversation will continue here ......

Copthall, yes, it would make a difference because there would be no opt-out - more lovely well behaved bright children in our state schools, including RPA, TA, etc. As long as the 'bring back grammars' brigade don't gain ground. Which they probably would, ours being a class-obsessed elitist society. So that is why on reflection I'd rather have 7% in private schools, some of which are selective, than 20% in grammar schools, 30% in faith schools (because where there are grammars, e.g. Kent, there are more privates and faith schools galore and 50% sinking in despair in sec mods. But never fear, the political will is not there.

There are a few things that could change too - to earn 'charity' status the privates could take more from BOTTOM sets and SEN, (not just bright kids) and they could also publish all their data on levels of attainment on intake, and all the other indicators that state schools are required to report on. Then we could compare like with like.

An update from Kingston Secondary School Action Group:

"An update on last night's meeting at the North Kingston Centre. The KET consortium made up of Kingston University, Kingston Colleage and Kingston Council are still committed to providing a six form entry school on the North Kingston Centre site using the existing building and will be putting forward their bid for funding in the next round (deadline 4 Jan). Parents need to show their support for this proposal for a non-selective school by completing the short survey via this page: www.kingstoneducationaltrust.org . The more support, the better the chances of success. Showing your support in this way does not commit you to anything. Other free schools will also be applying for fuding so if this is your preferred type of school it is vital to show your support!"

But unless you are going to start bussing middle class children around like magic pills, they aren't going to make a difference to inner city schools. A school serving the most deprived areas in the country, where noone has the economic choice to go private, is four times more likely to be judged inadequate by OFSTED and yet there are schools in such areas that are outstanding. They turn round these schools through effective leadership and good teaching.

Frankly if the middle classes don't pay, they move so you have to tackle the problems of sink schools by improving the schools not relying on improving the pupils

I certainly do not get the logic of taking low set and SEN children out of the schools with the culture, resources and experience to support them . Actually implicit in your idea is that these kids are somehow bringing the state system down and that private schools should be brought down as well, when really it is just about children that have different needs. In fact LEH to my knowledge has 10% of girls with SLDs, since they are just as prevalent at every level of ability and don't do a particularly good job of supporting them .

And as you say there isn't the will, it isn't just that we have an extremely elitist society, it is also a liberal society and whilst I want a more equal society I wouldn't want that to be at the expense of the freedom to choose.

Also Jeev has a point about world class education. I am a UK Guardian to several children who have come to school in the UK from overseas , those children hopefully will be amongst the overseas students who keep my university going. They are quite an important part of our USP in the World's education market.

Surrey Comet Oct 12 reports: Swedish companies 'interested' in running Kingston school

' . . The school, to be located in the North Kingston Centre, will have just 180 places, with six forms of entry, rather than the initial 240 across eight formsIt has been proposed by Kingston Educational Trust . . Mr Whitfield said six forms of entry was more appropriate for the site and would meet the immediate demand for 2015, but admitted other free schools would be needed . . Other free school proposals so far include the King Edward the Martyr's School by Kingston Church School Foundation, which released its prospectus this week, and the meeting heard there had also been interest from two Swedish companies . . The Department for Education (DfE) could approve more . . parents can only sign up . . to one.

See also Parents to quiz Kingston Council on smaller secondary school plans from Oct 10.

Copthall, I was buying your argument until you said 'different needs'. With private schools you are buying privilege that others can't access. Different 'wants' maybe. I've heard that argument before ...

A close friend had the dilemma a few years ago of - on a (private school) teacher's salary, actually lower than you'd think, not enough for private school fees certainly - a choice between a boys's comp with bad results, high-ish FSM and ethnically diverse intake, or a mixed school that was white working class with equally dire results. There was a new head at the first one and some optimism but what made a difference was that a group of friends all talked to each other and took the plunge to invest their children in the school. It paid off - all now at university and the school has since doubled its rate of 5 A-C inc E&M in four or so years because parents no longer avoid it, and by that I mean it got better results than non-academy mixed schools in Richmond. Meanwhile, his privately educated friends have ended up at the same institutions.

As gmsing has pointed out, some will always opt for private, and I am sure I can't convince Jeev. But my daughter will see a lot of friends in Y7 go to private schools and the effect will be more noticeable than the impact the Catholic school on her year group.

ChrisSquire, I think Nick Whitfield is right on size. Grey Court serves that area well now as will its sixth form.

I meant that SEN / low set children have different needs, not justifying private schools on the basis they meet different needs, you are right they are wants, not needs. I speak from experience . My brother has severe Dyslexia but got through the 11+ because he is bright. Going to a Grammar School was a disaster, they wrote him off, and he became a troublemaker which if you knew him was just ridiculous! My mother remains convinced that the secondary modern would have had the ethos, resources and experience to help him. He went on to a degree via the day release route from an apprenticeship so the ability was there but it took ten years to recover his confidence enough to embark on that process.

Are you saying the group of friends made the difference to the school, surely it was the new Head. In any case what you are describing is what is going to happen as RPA improves. I predict that RPA and Greycourt (and TA if it succeeds) will join Waldegrave, Teddington and Orleans and they will have ever tinier catchments as people move to get in there rather than go private. Lets hope Turing House and Edgerton Road will be able to serve all the people caught in the black holes. Certainly thinking about my friends in Sheen, 90% of us would never have gone down the private school route if we hadn't had to contemplate the prospect of knives at the schoolgates of Sheen, sending our children there wouldn't have made the difference. It needed leadership and investment.

I think I posted before that in DDs peer group I don't believe that whether they went to state or private made any difference to the unis they went to, it gives me faith in the university's attempts to level the playing field.

Copthall, if you saw the map attached to my Grey Court link you can see Grey Court's catchment has already shrunk and is now mainly North Kingston up to the edge of (but not including) Sheen - you'd have more chance of getting in from Teddington. I would expect it to be oversubscribed on first choice this year - results are matching Orleans on many measures.

My friend's school did have a good head but having a bigger top set clinched it - happier parents, happier teachers, more popularity and so it becomes self-reinforcing. The other school hasn't fared so well. Look at TA's Ebacc score among high attainers on www.education.gov.uk and it is very decent - above average. Just a below average sized top set.

Muminlondon, I hesitate to say this in a public forum, but .... I'm hearing tales of well-meaning parents visiting TA with noble intentions, only to be disappointed by the headteacher. They want to be impressed, but they're not.

In the old days I don't think a head made much difference - ours seemed bumbling and out of touch and we laughed at how he wouldn't tell you off but would just invite you in for a biscuit while he droned on. It was a very liberal ethos - our hymn books were full of songs like 'The ink is black, the page is white...'. (Perhaps that's why I'm suspicious of the LibDems.) But the teachers were good and we children didn't know any different. With academies, leadership is more important.

The head at Hampton Academy communicated the GCSE results very well, I thought.

"But the teachers were good"

Well, TA will get their chance to prove that's true in their case when they have their first full inspection in the Spring. If its not then it may be time for a change of Head.

The RTT reports New Twickenham Catholic school named, despite High Court battle (Oct 13) which includes part of RISC's statement rebutting the Council's claim that 'the Secretary of State for education has confirmed their decision on Catholic Schools is lawful.'

. . The Government has intervened on the council?s side in the case being brought against them. But that is on a legal point that has already been raised. It introduces a different emphasis, and will complicate the court hearing, but it may well not sway the outcome.

School not a one-man protest is the headline to 4 letters in this week's RTT rebutting Lord True's claim that RISC is just him and theBritish Humanists Association. It includes a cogent appeal to the what would Jesus do argument.

"TA will get their chance to prove [their teaching is good]"

And, this blog gives an insight on what they're doing to try and make sure that happens.

I came across someone whose son who was classed as gifted and talented who went to TA on the basis of all sorts of promises about how he would be stretched and would be able to develop his potential fully. It all basically disappeared within a term because the teachers admitted that they simply didn't have time to do that plus all the other extras the academy required of them, so she took him out. To be fair, though, that was in the early stages and it may have improved by now.

The TA head seemed to come with a good track record. Maybe his blog should have more pictures, like HA head's blog. Not meaning to be trivial, but it might help to have a website that is a bit more inviting.

I think that Ofsted inspection will be important. As a prospective parent all you have to go on its results - which can take 3-4 years to improve as children progress through a school - and popularity, which is only based on results and anecdotal evidence. It't very hard to get a clear picture of what is happening inside a school.

I respectfully state that the TA blog is not anything close to being inspirational. TA is just not engaging with its local community and telling them what they want to see - ethos, discipline, improvements in quality of teaching etc etc.
As muminlondon say it is very hard for parents to get a clear picture of what is happening in the schools. Parents are very sceptical of schools like TA and RPA that are not being candid about the changes they need to make. Their marketing efforts can be like emperors new clothes.
I am not against state schools and have a lot of respect for our good ones like Teddington, Grey Court, Waldegrave. Others if they cant improve and get their community buy-in, need a change in leadership team.
Thats why I am keen to see more independent schools get into the state sector and set up new or take over underperming schools that are not able to meet the community needs. What better way sharing the privilege ? To that extent I am a strong supporter of Gove's free school policy. However the inconsistency in sharing the privilege when it comes to VA faith schools, makes him and our Tory councillors lose their credebility.

Chris your link to RTT letters does not work. Here is an easier way to access the letters and this weeks press coverage.
www.richmondinclusiveschools.org.uk/files/index?folder_id=5927655

I am keen to see more independent schools get into the state sector and ... take over underperforming schools

They're not though - that was political rhetoric, but sponsors of academies are now chains like Ark, Harris, Kunskappskolan, AET. Some aren't even run by people with any experience of education. I don't see Eton, or St Paul's, or Hampton, or LEH, etc. taking over underperforming state schools. Tell me if you know any examples, honestly.

On top of Labour sponsored academies (which were at least a direct replacement for failing schools) the Tory policy of further academies expansion as proposed in this RTT article was that outstanding schools could 'enjoy all the freedoms of academy status, if in return they also take an underperforming school under their wing'. That principle had merit - federated schools - but it's vanished, too many governance issues. How on earth could Orleans Park or Waldegrave take over Twickenham Academy now that it is part of a Swedish mini-chain? In the meantime all parents can do is watch and wait, and feel rather powerless.

By the way, I know that St Paul's have worked with RPA in relation to gifted and talented students and music projects. Equally, Tiffin has worked with Grey Court. Perhaps LEH and Hampton have links with HA and TA? Anyone know?

Most of the fifth and sixth form at LEH try to get involved in some activity or other at HA and other local schools, including Teddington. In fact there are more volunteers than opportunities. Details here www.lehs.org.uk/pbp/Active_Service_and_Outreach_Work_by_Pupils_2010.php and www.lehs.org.uk/pbp/Links_with_Local_Maintained_Schools.php

They also invite HA pupils to talks by visiting Speakers eg St Vince www.hamptonschool.org.uk/News/Local-MP-visits-the-School.aspx I would imagine joint activities will expand further once HA has a Sixth Form.

Here are some links from the HA website www.hamptonacademy.org.uk/aboutus/partnerschools.4.e754c9812af37de0768000380.html www.hamptonacademy.org.uk/latestnews/hamptonpartnershiporchestra.5.514b581212ce8007983800013201.html www.hamptonacademy.org.uk/arts/whatanamazingorangeoftalentinthetechnicalphysicaltheatreworkshopdeliveredbytheorangetree.5.514b581212ce8007983800016346.html
www.hamptonacademy.org.uk/latestnews/topchildrensauthorvisitshampton.5.7dbe14b91326d693575800017646.html
www.hamptonacademy.org.uk/latestnews/hanworthroadcarnegieshadowinggroup.5.647b3315137fb346de6800025.html

Whilst I can see where these schools could help with these sorts of joint activities and programmes, sharing resources and with gifted and talented, most of the state school teachers I know teach in state schools rather than private schools precisely because it is a different challenge, and they would actually find teaching all those homogenously bright willing pupils a bit boring? I think they, and probably OFSTED would bridle at the idea that LEH (or muminlondon's bumbling Headmaster) could teach them, or improve on the sort of leadership, management structures and processes that OFSTED expects to see in outstanding schools to ensure excellent teaching and effective monitoring of pupil progress that meets the needs of the diversity of the student body.

gmsing: the link has just worked for me OK - twice: it takes you to the front page of the whole paper but it is easy to navigate to the letters page. Here is the archive of back issues to Jan 1 2008.

Thanks copthallresident, I'm pleased to see this level of cooperation - perhaps there could even be more. Now the schools are to have sixth forms there are even more such opportunities, including with universities. One reason Richmond primary schools are so good is that the heads work closely together and share good practice - and as they are all oversubscribed there is no need for competition between them, or money spent on self-promotion or spin.

Hi, on the subject of partnerships, I recently heard that there is some sort of partnership between LEH and Hampton and Teddington and Hampton Academy. Teddington mainly presents it as about offering nice extras rather than anything core, so I was quite surprised to see the stuff about LEH girls mentoring those from the state schools. Is this a well-established practice elsewhere or rather experimental? Hampton School regularly sends along some boys to help at sports day at our local primary but it always seems like a bit of a soft option as they don't do anything that parent volunteers couldn't do and I think they should be supporting primary schools in areas where there is a bit less parental involvement. I wonder to what extent LEH and Hampton have regarded these activities with gifted and talented as good for recruitment of very bright children into their sixth forms?

I read that the German school works with Waldegrave offering weekend language exchanges (maybe Orleans as well, as their German results are so good). With the Russell primary school for language classes too. All of this would depend on the good relations between heads and perhaps some mutual benefit. It could be a bit unevenly spread, such 'privilege' - I don't know about any links Twickenham academy or its feeder primaries might have (including in Hounslow) that would benefit them.