New Secondary Schools for Richmond 3

[BayJay]

Hello and welcome to the Mumsnet thread about Richmond Borough Secondary Schools. The discussion started in February 2011 in two parallel locations here and here.

In November 2011 the most active of those two threads, in Mumsnet Local, reached 1000 messages (the maximum allowed) so we continued the conversation here.

Now its May 2012 and that thread has also filled up, so the conversation will continue here ......

Grey Court School becomes fourth academy reports the RTT Online; no sign of the judicial review story on the website.

muminlondon - I'm no expert but my understanding is that the admissions for RC schools are based on Diocesan boundaries rather than council ones.

Taking St Marks as an example, 18% of places are allocated to pupils living in the Upper Thames Deanery includes parts of LBRuT (Whitton, Twickenham, Teddington, Hamptons) and parts of Surrey (Sunbury, Stanwell, Ashford. Staines, Shepperton). On home to school distance this does favour LBRuT residents over those further away. Which is irritating, but those are the long-established criteria.

Naturally I am hoping that LBRuT residents in the deanery support the new school. giving me a shot at a Hounslow school. But perceived unfairness? The whole admissions system is unfair isn't it, a postcode lottery?

It will be interesting to see how many st james parents opt for orleans now the linked system has stopped. Those in central twickenham will get it as will the trafalgar kids in central twickenham which means I guess the archdeacon ones from stains rd will get TA

It would be lovely to have Catholics mixing with local children in secondary schools. They're allowed to now.

ChippyMinton, with the legal argument for St RR based on the logic that the school is not necessary, so it's legal, perhaps they won't change the Hounslow admission arrangements until the new school is established. But if as a VA school it fills up with non-Catholics initially, it would still discriminate against non-Catholic siblings later on. Roll on the judicial review, there has to be clarity but I have sympathy for all parents choosing schools this year.

On another subject Richmond Park Academy?s bid for opening a sixth form has been successful! The Secretary of State wrote to us on October 4 2012 to confirm that we will be an 11-18 school from September 2014.

Provisional KS2 and GCSE results for borough schools given here.

Ebacc results: borough average 25%. Top three schools are Waldegrave, Orleans Park and Grey Court.

5 A*-C GCSE results inc. E&M: borough average 62%. Twickenham and Hampton Academies both 46% but Hampton got three times TA's score on Ebacc.

Unfortunately another year of poor results from TA. The school with the largest number of empty spaces shows the most improved performance. Clearly RPA will now fill up sooner than what Nick Whitfield thinks and perhaps also attract Catholic pupils from their local community.

Are there any statistics for what percentage of children that did the right combination of exams passed their Ebacc as opposed to the overall number of children in the year? There are still a lot of children either not doing a language and/or not doing history or geography and the schools i have heard about have decided not to make this compulsory. So, although I agree that 5% doesn't look good, and even 25% seems low, I wonder what % were actually entered for the right combination of exams.

That info and breakdown per subject was available in the final performance tables for 2011. Not sure how to interpret that though - a low rate of entry could be an indication that subject timetabling is difficult for a smaller cohort, especially where mixed ability doesn't suit the subject, or resources for language teaching. Low numbers entered for humanities subjects could reflect higher than average numbers of pupils with English as a second language, etc. It's hard to be good at everything.

For 2011 average Ebacc entry rates (and pass rates) of all state school pupils were:
1.9% (0.3%) 'low attainers' (below level 4 on entry)
14.3% (6.6%) 'middle attainers' (level 4)
44.0% (37.2%) 'high' (level 5)
ALL PUPILS: 21.6% (15.4%) - 33% of that total cohort 'high attainers'.

Last year Waldegrave the same Ebacc score as Wallington girls' grammar school (58% entered for Ebacc subjects, 57% passed in both schools). At Wallington (95% 'high attainers', 99% 5 A*-C inc E&M) only 65% of the cohort were entered for humanities subjects and 84% for languages.

The Ebacc is actually 6 GCSEs (7 with English Lit) and compulsory RE is an 8th subject. So not a lot of room on the curriculum for drama, music, art, a second language, a third science, a second humanities subject, etc. Not to mention DT, ICT, PE, PSHE, etc. It must be a timetabling nightmare.

Some surprising Ebacc entry statistics (2011) from the private sector:

Godolphin and Latymer 38% (38% pass) - 38% humanities
Latymer Upper 13% (13% pass) - 30% languages, 63% Maths
Kingston Grammar School 23% (23% pass) - 32% languages, 85% humanities.

Can anyone explain that?

muminlondon Do these tables include IGCSEs? I know that for a long time government tables didn't.

Generally the policy in private schools is to give pupils as much choice as possible. They tend to stick to a limit of 10 and make Eng lit and lang, Maths and double or triple Science and posssibly a language compulsory. It would be unusual to make History or Geography compulsory in order to widen to widen the choices available. If a pupil is particularly arty they may well focus on art, music, drama (and music is one of the most demanding GCSEs) or if they have a talent for languages, they may do 2 or more, bearing in mind they may do classics as well as MFL. Religion and Ethics GCSE is not part of Ebacc but is very popular as a precursor to Philosophy and Ethics at A level.

This is Latymers policy.

^The core, that all pupils will follow, will include: Mathematics, English and
English Literature, Biology, Chemistry and Physics, a Modern Language,
World Perspectives, PE, Games, and PSHE. The options will, as now, include:
Geography, History, Religious Studies, a second Modern Language, Latin,
Greek, Art, Music, Design and Technology, Information Technology and Drama.^

Gove's insistence that he was bringing best practise from private schools to state schools is not backed up by evidence but then I have yet to see any of his proposals that are.........

Looking at those statistics again I do not believe only 13% at Latymer take up the History or Geography option. Assuming you are using the Dof E stats then only 62% getting 5 A-C including English and Maths doesn't sound right either unless they are not including IGCSE. It is more likely top sets do IGCSE Maths/ History / Geography so this is the proportion who did ordinary Maths and History or Geography, thus qualifying for the governments definition of Ebacc? Latymer's GCSE results this year were 90% A*/A. At LEH 96% did Ebacc subjects.

The RTT reported on Oct 06: [[http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtimes.co.uk/news/9969406.Michael_Gove_backs_Richmond_Council_over_Catholic_school_campaign/?ref=mc Michael Gove backs Richmond Council over Catholic school campaign
]] with yet another discussion of the pros and cons . .

Cambridge IGCSEs are included in the stats. Edexcel has been accredited too, maybe more recently, so 2012 tables will be more accurate. But won't all these exam boards be abolished anyway?

Michael Gove has managed impose a national curriculum on private schools which is interesting. And the number of a/a* grades for privates will drop if the new o-level type exams come in. Many private schools (not necessarily the likes of LEH or St Paul's) must be nervous - they've relied on that in their marketing.

Orleans Park beat Kingston Grammar on its French and German results this year, especially on A* with similar numbers of entries (not as % but KGS is selective). It's interesting to see that twice as many at KGS took GCSE in PE as in music!

IGCSEs:

Cambridge International Certificates and their legacy Cambridge International Examinations iGCSEs are included in the performance measures. Other iGCSEs which had not been accredited at the time of publication are not included. Many of these "missing" iGCSE results are in Mathematics and individual science subjects and this continues to impact on some of the indicators published in the Performance tables for Independent schools.

So KGS doesn't have that excuse for languages but it's obviously encouraged more students to enrol in the last two years. Orleans Park results are here but extreme care must be taken in comparing a private school with selective entry with a comprehensive school. Though the language results are interesting, n'est-ce pas?

Gosh this is very complicated (slightly bleating voice of new Year 7 parent!) even before the new Gove-levels are introduced for some subjects. Ebacc does seem a measurement too far though given the low uptake of history, geography and languages in many schools.

KGS probably has less high attainers than schools like Orleans as the high attainers whose parents are that way inclined will have got them into LEH/Hampton/St Paul's or Tiffins. The small group of children who went to KGS from my daughter's primary included mostly those who were in the middle sets although they are probably high-middle in terms of the national average - it was much more about the parents wanting them to go to a private school than about them being cleverer than their peers. But KGS probably also has less or no low attainers. Private schools that aren't the most academic have a delicate marketing job to do as they can't say "we will take your middling child and get it better results than it would have got in the state sector" but everyone knows that's their marketing pitch. Would be interesting to see more honest assessments of how much better children do or don't do academically in state or private sector based on potential at 11. With 13% children having passed Level 6 maths in LB Richmond this summer that's quite a large group of high attainers that could be monitored many of whom will have stayed in the local state system. Also a high % getting Level 5 in English & Maths which surely means they ought to be capable of getting good GCSEs?

I would expect Orleans Park to do particularly well at languages as it is one of their specialisms. They work closely with their feeder primaries to create a consistent approach to language teaching, so that many of their Year 7 intake hit the ground running from day 1.

For info, here's another link to school-level transfer data. This time Hampton Hill Juniors.

"Would be interesting to see more honest assessments of how much better children do or don't do academically in state or private sector based on potential at 11"

Lottie, I think that may be a little easier under Ofsted's new (tougher) inspection framework, where the emphasis is shifting to measurement of progress made by individual students ...

... only schools and further education providers with outstanding teaching will be awarded Ofsted's ?outstanding' grade. It does not mean that every lesson seen during an inspection needs to be outstanding. It does, however, mean that over time teaching is enabling almost all pupils to make rapid and sustained progress.

Tough sounds like a good idea in that context Bay Jay. I notice that after the Orleans Park GCSE results linked to in Mum In London's 12.15 post above there is a section on KS3. It says that the Government expects children at the end of KS3 (year 9) to be on Level 5 or 6. 80-90% of Orleans Park children are. But 60% of children in LB Richmond now get to level 5 at the end of their SATS in year 6 and 13% get level 6 maths. How many levels are they expected to go up during the first 3 years of secondary school?

Hampton Hill children now seem to be going to Hampton Academy in quite large numbers. Is HA full in Year 7? I assume there are no overall statistics on how full Year 7 in each secondary school is yet? (as opposed to the statistics about offers).

muminlondon I can't believe I keep ending up in the (blue?) corner arguing for private schools! However I do think we have to have some balance and compare like with like. I agree with Councillor Hodgins that it would be so much better if like his native Canada we could send our child to the school that serves the diversity of our community and be assured of a consistently good education (yes he said that! ) Then the private sector would shrink and parents wouldn't face such difficult decisions. We have outstanding schools but until all parents can access them, which is what this debate is all about, then parents will continue to choose private (or Catholic), and the private sector will continue to have the money to invest in state of the art facilties etc etc.

Private Schools don't just do GCSEs in Maths and English, certainly not KGS or Latymer. Latymers 2011 results are on their website, 109 did French, 58 Spanish, 15 German out of 110, who all got English and Maths so clearly IGCSEs taken by top sets have been excluded in the Dof E figures. With 72 doing French, 30 German, 23 Spanish, and 26 doing Latin and 10 Greek in 2012, out of 130 at KGS I don't believe they are recovering from some sort of downer on languages either. I also think you have to be careful about comparing a school that does IGCSE in top sets and where a language GCSE is compulsory with a school that selects it's linguists. The same number may have sat French at Orleans but it has nearly twice as many pupils. Not all of us do well at languages (though of course my 70s resat Grade 6 O level is equivalent to an A* today ). I'm not undervaluing Orleans results, just pointing out that you may not be comparing like with like.

I am also not surprised that twice as many did PE as Music at KGS (albeit low numbers for both anyway) Music is a really tough GCSE and really only for those with a background/talent, next to impossible if you haven't (criminal that Gove plans to devalue it in state schools though, given the contribution music makes not just to our culture but our balance of payments) Pupils at private schools are advised to take a contrast GCSE for personal satisfaction, and the sports sciences are a popular option at universities. Twice as many take RMT as Music at LEH www.lehs.org.uk/Exam/GCSE_Results_2012_by_Subject_12.php and that is without the possibility they will persue it as a career.

Lottie I don't think school choice comes down to marketing and results. I know parents who have chosen KGS over LEH because it has a reputation for being encouraging, and adding value. That is certainly it's reputation amongst my daughters' peers as well. LEH suits certain girls but KGS has a reputation for all it's pupils being happy and thriving and the new Head is helping make it more attractive to parents. Reputations cannot be built on marketing alone and results can only help because that is what parents want to see. As we have discussed before all these schools, whether outstanding state schools or private schools enable the most able to get good results and access good unis. The one with the best results tend to get the most able so the cycle is self reinforcing (though this years results have thrown things in the air, Latymer went from 86ish %AA to 90% , LEH from 96%A/A to 89%). It is next to impossible to say how one child would have done in different schools, too many variables especially with nurturing confidence and motivation being as important as ability. All you can do is make the choice with your child based on what feels rightfor them.

I can't see how it's an exact science. SATs only test English and Maths and teacher assessment can occasionally be generous. Secondary schools usually do their own assessments for setting purposes. I think it takes about two years to progress through each level. It's also interesting to see that even in selectives, subjects like English Lit, Geography, History and languages can get lower A/A* scores than e.g. sciences.

Copthall, I bang the drum for state schools because we hear so much propaganda in favour of private schools - and if you don't have the money, it's not a choice. They get three times the funding and cream off a lot of bright children - although arguably it's less divisive to keep private schools and ban selection in state schools than the other way round. There will never be a level playing field on resources and there's less information and quite a few myths around private schools, whereas the light is shone harshly on state schools without celebrating their achievements.

(I'm not Fiona Millar by the way)