New Secondary Schools for Richmond 2

[BayJay]

I'm starting this new thread because the other one of the same name has filled up.

seenbutnotheard - But this is at the expense of needs of non catholic minority groups. Just because our numbers are smaller does not mean we can be discriminated against. It does not seem that you appreciate the importance of keeping the diverse community integrated. Or are you suggesting that we are all forced to move to Hounslow ?

akhan Of course I am not suggesting that and well you know it, but try and point score all you like.

The provision of a Catholic Secondary school is not at anyone's expense. Even RISC's figures indicated that Catholic children within the borough will very soon not be able to access Catholic schools outside of the borough. By default then, they will need to be educated within the borough. What the Catholic community are asking for is the opportunity to attend a school that meets their faith needs, and, given that there are enough Catholic children to fill a school, I don't see this as an unreasonable request.

I appreciate diversity. Ethnic and racial diversity is, and always has been, a feature of the Catholic Church's transnational identity. Such diversity has found unity in common religious faith. It is shared core values, which are rooted in religious faith, that contribute to authentic social cohesion.

You do not support faith schools. Full stop. You have made your feelings about that very clear but please be gracious enough to understand that the motives of those of us who do support them, are not for reasons of prejudice.

seenbutnotheard - I would like to clarify that I am not against faith schools - I support faith schools and would like them to benefit everyone and not have discriminatory intake and employment policies

seenbutnotheard - "Even RISC's figures indicated that Catholic children within the borough will very soon not be able to access Catholic schools outside of the borough" - please point me where they have specifically made this point. I think the point they made was about rising birth rates overall in Hounslow and other boroughs - so the solution to the problem should take into account everyones needs. They did not show any stats on birth rates broken down by religious group. Have you seen any such released by the Diocese or their projections on demand and supply for Catholic VA schools ?

Ohh, sorry, are Catholic families excluded from any rise in birth rates? I must have missed that.

are Catholic families excluded from any rise in birth rates?
Of course they aren't. They are equally affected by the problem we're all facing: not enough good quality school places to go around. Under the traditional school procurement system, it would have been the council's job to work out where to put the new schools to keep everyone happy (and all the arguments we're having about 'fairness' would be relevant to persuading them one way or the other). However, there's been a seismic shift in that concept. Whilst it is still the council's legal duty to make sure there are enough spaces for everyone, now there is essentially a free 'market' in providing schools that are most in demand. Under the Academies legislation, if the Diocese could show there is a strong demand for a Catholic school, and convince the Government of their case, then they would be able to have one (with 50:50 admissions). However, they would have to do that in competition with other groups who could equally make their case for an in-demand school (Academy providers, Free Schools). The problem here is that the Diocese has essentially slipped in its application for a VA school just before the new rules come fully in to force. People can argue the case for a VA school till they're blue in the face, but if Michael Gove follows the spirit of his new legislation he will see that there is equal demand for a community school and either reject the application or demand a very clear explanation of why this school needs to be VA rather than an Academy. Hopefully the excuse that "we don't like the idea of 50:50 admissions" will not hold much water with him.

We need to respect and understand the strong demand and support from both groups. Hence a Catholic academy with 50:50 admissions could be a healthy compromise to avoid the division in the community.

So BayJay, when the Council talked in its briefing paper of a community school needed after 2016 (which may not have factored in increased demand from the 50% going private, or supply meeting demand nearby) it couldn't just create one anyway?

it couldn't just create one anyway?
muminlondon, it would purchase the land and then put out a call for bids from Academy providers (or Free Schools, which are just parent-promoted or teacher-promoted Academies). I think they can also sponsor academies themselves, but I don't know if they're allowed to be the sole sponsor (anyone know?). Our council may not want to want to get too heavily involved in creating new schools because they want to move towards a commisioning model.

Under the new rules, if no Academy providers came forward then the council could still give the site away for a VA school.

The main obstacle is finding a site large enough for a school large enough to be viable, offer the full range of subjects and have playing field, in a borough where every square metre of ground is fully used and tightly held. And it needs to be affordable as well.

Expanding existing schools is the other possibility: one option, which I favour, would be to take the remaining grounds of Orleans House north of Riverside into Orleans school. This would mean handing over the galleries and other arts facilities there and an area of scrubby woodland, mainly sycamore, which is unused except by dog walkers, to provide a decent school for our kids. Is this too much to ask?

Probably: the dog walkers are a fearsome lobby and it would be a brave politician to take them on backed by the borough?s arty crafty literati and tree huggers.

Hmm, interesting suggestion Chris. I'm not going to comment on whether I think its a good one or not. However, in principle it wouldn't necessarily be the council's decision. If Free School or Academy bidders want a piece of public land my understanding is that if they can convince the government that it is under-used, then the Government can simply acquire it from the council on their behalf.

Whether the Government would agree that Orleans House is under-used or not is another matter!

I'm a bit confused about the Free Schools issue. I thought that there had already been a proposal for a Free School on the old Royal Mail site by the station but it was rejected because the Department for Education (or whatever they call themselves these days) thought there was sufficient supply for secondary school places in the borough. Now all of a sudden we have more Free School proposals popping up.... which suggests that more places are needed. One of them intends to open in 2012??? Can anyone explain this situation to me please?

Wimpykid, I'm not sure the government did think there was sufficient supply, its more that the Richmond Free School didn't convince them of the demand in their application. Plus, from memory, I think their application wasn't convincing on their commitment to the full ability range. Perhaps they will try again. Their website seems to be down at the moment.

wimpykid: Here are: the RTT report on the failed bid (Aug 31)); and the proposed Maharishi school. You must form your own opinion as to how likely it is that either will open at a date to interest you.

I think neither will ever open. Money for the scheme is very tight so that only a few will get the go ahead and there seems no reason to choose ours over the many much needier places in England - Hounslow borough for example. I have been leafleting there for the by-election and it has been quite an eye-opener.

After the 2015 election, if Labour are back in office, the scheme will be scrapped.

BayJay must be right on the first free school bid - it failed because that bid had not produced evidence of popular support among parents (a market strategy as distinct from evidence of capacity in other schools). From what I remember the aims of the school were very vague ('integrated approach to subjects providing a general classical education' or something). Whereas Toby Young's West London Free school had a definable group of supporters and distinctive branding. I can't recall any other successful bid on that scale.

ChrisSquire, according to paragraph 4.13 of this doc, "the Secretary of State recently stated that he would like to see free schools established London ?in areas such as Kingston, Sutton and Richmond, where there is said to be a shortage of places?"

Muminlondon, on this website you can download lists of Free Schools already open, and those in the pipeline. There are a few large ones that haven't had quite so much publicity as Toby Young's school.

Also Toby Young's school is competing in part with private schools so there are over 1,000 such pupils per year in Richmond to target.

Thanks, will take a look. I think funding will be very limited in these recessionary times.

The Accord Coalition, which is endorsing the Richmond Inclusive Schools Campaign, have just published their 12th Quarterly Report. Here's a link to it for anyone interested.

Has anyone else seen this Mumsnet thread regarding a possible primary free school in the borough?

Chris S and BayJay thanks for the info but where does the person quoting:

''Pupils who were at one of the former link schools but live more than about 1.5 km away would definitely not get into OPS''

get this figure come from - is it a estimate? How is this figure identified? We live almost exactly that distance away from OPS so I'm now worried - but OPS is much nearer to us than any other secondary.

PhyllisD have a look at the admissions map from 2011. It stretches north to Isleworth and as far as Strawberry Hill but stops abruptly on the east side because that's where St Mary's or St Stephen's catchment area stop (that area is also out of Waldegrave catchment).

Phyllis, I don't know the origin of that forecast, which was posted on the local Lib Dem website (that ChrisSquire edits). It claims to be an "informed view" but its not clear how the 1.5km figure was arrived at. Nobody knows what will happen. The council have done some modelling based on 2010 and 2011 applications, but the results are only presented numerically, not by distance. In any case, they acknowledge that the data is not representative of what will happen in the future because under the current system many people don't bother to list choices that they know they have no chance of getting under the Linked School Policy. Basically, it will be a free-for-all, (but that is arguably better than the current system which discriminates against children at non-linked schools).

PhyllisDietrichson, BayJay: it is the personal estimate of a well informed local opinion leader who wishes to be anonymous. Time will tell whether they're right or not.

It may well be that they will be proved right but not immediately so. The catchment range may shrink year by year to a final figure of c. 1.5 km in, say, 10 years' time. We just can't say how rapidly parents will respond to the new rules of the game.

In particular, by choosing to live in East Twickenham near Richmond bridge within the catchment areas of both the Vineyard school on the hill and OPS.