New Secondary Schools for Richmond 2

[BayJay]

I'm starting this new thread because the other one of the same name has filled up.

As a link: www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/apr/13/half-free-schools-negotiating-premises

CothallResident thanks for your great posts earlier.

Those supporting the Catholic School must believe that if residents in central Twick actually could still get into Waldegrave or Orleans now, or even in Twick academy in couple of years, there would be less outcry against the proposed school. .........But if nothing is done Richmond Park will become the only option for central Twickenham, if that doesn't fill too.

This is the reason people are so concerned. If we had those options then it probably would be less urgent an issue. This is a very tough enviroment in which to try and set-up a school for one group only. (And why the Free school proposal got so much support so quickly)
Many years ago the reaction may have been different.

I have been shocked at how remarkably late the council has dealt with the massive shortage of Primary places recently. So this does does inspire me with any hope they will deal with the coming shortage at secondary level any better!

It is so sad to see parents polarised against each other over school places. This is all caused by

1. catchment areas already shrinking hugely and due to shrink much much further/change due to no more link system
2. In my opinion, out-dated admissions policies in these anti-discrimination times.

I know of one friend who really dislikes going to church, (and couldn't stand her parents dragging her there, as a child in Poland,) but now actually goes regularly as she cannot afford to move or go private!
She sees it as her only option to obtain decent school for her child.

She is in favour of an inclusive school instead at Clifden road because she really doesn't want to attend church! I am not suggesting for one moment she is in the majority! But also she's definately not the only one either and it is a ridiculous system that she feels she has no choice but to follow. I personally would be very curious to see a comparison of church attendance figures where there are Catholic schools and a shortage of places locally, and areas where are not.

.....doesn't inspire me with any hope........

Not sure if anyone's mentioned it already in this thread, but Waldegrave is planning to admit boys into their proposed sixth form. Makes sense given the post-16 partnership approach across all of the schools. It wouldn't really work as a true partnership if one of the schools was single-sex.

'The post-16 partnership' will in fact be vigorous competition between Orleans, Teddington, Waldegrave and the College for the strong A-level candidates and encouragement for the weaker ones to pursue their studies at the College or elsewhere. Which, in 5 years' time, will claim to have the borough's 'best sixth form', I wonder?

This will make the teachers happier but the new sixth forms wil take up space on the three sites that could be used to increase the schools' intake at Year 7. It is this opportunity cost of the new sixth forms that is the strongest reason to object to them.

The post-16 partnership' will in fact be vigorous competition
Too cynical for my tastes Chris .

the new sixth forms wil take up space on the three sites
From a parent's perspective, I think the existing schools are big enough already.

Obviously ruling out expansion does mean that new sites will need to be found for new schools. That's not easy, but not impossible either.

I can't help thinking that the LibDems are shooting themselves in the foot here, Chris. I'm not convinced that parents would be at all keen for the existing schools to increase their yr 7 intakes. If adding a sixth forms makes that less likely, then that's going to make them even more popular surely?

That said, much as I'm in favour of the addition of sixth forms, I do share the LibDems concerns about the £25 million that's being borrowed to implement them. The current administration does seem very keen to blow the education budget whilst crossing their fingers that the looming explosion in pupil numbers doesn't strike whilst they're still in office.

In principle, I agree to the idea of the 6th forms proposed in the current consultation and applaud the ambition. We live in Barnes and are looking forward to local 6th forms. It is not ideal that students at North end of the borough have to travel all the way to RUTC or Esher to receive 6th form education. However I was concerned about the level of granularity in the consultation and the rigour used to determine the 6th form vision and business cases and the most effective investment levels and cross school borough wide governance model. For example the paucity of information in the consultation documents, does not give me confidence if the current proposals
a) provide the best value for money for tax payers - for example why is £25m the amount needed - is it overcooked and we could get the desired results using £15m or is it half cooked and we actually need £40m to get a proper solution
b) There is robust governance to ensure that it is a win win solution for all schools and it would not benefit one school to the detriment of other.
How will the schools collaborate with each other ? Will there be a central governing body to leverage economies of scale , resolve conflicts etc
How will each schools 6th form offering be unique ( terms of subjects offered, value proposition etc) ? What is the risk of competition between schools - for example what if one school has a stronger offering it could draw not only their existing students but also students from other nearby school - could that for example weaken and destabilise that school ? What mitigation factors will be developed to manage such risks ?
Richmond Council should share relevant case studies where other Councils have launched similar sixth form proposals - what are the benchmarks, leading practices, learnings and results obtained from their initiatives ?

It needs greater level of scrutiny and assurance

Hi Gmsing. The topic of sixth forms was discussed by the Scrutiny Committee back in October as part of this item on Educational Priorities. Here are the minutes. The report mentions a detailed feasibility report, which probably contains some of the information you mention. However, I don't think that report has been published, and it isn't on the scrutiny work programme as far as I can see. The schools published their proposals for last month's consultation. That had a statutory format and didn't include publication of the feasibility study.

My understanding is that the 25 million is capital building cost for the new accomodation to house the sixth forms.

p.s. The appendix of the sixth form proposals contains a little info on how the partnership will work. This is what it says ....

Richmond upon Thames Post-16 Partnership Statement of Intent

Key principles of provision
The provision within the Partnership will put the learner at the heart of all it does and will aim to meet the needs of all learners.

The relationships within the Partnership will be built on the trust that has developed between all providers within the borough through the 14-19 Partnership, Sixth Forms Forum and other collaborative working; and will be underpinned by a willingness to co-operate and collaborate.

Partnership structure
The Partnership will have a steering-group, representing all providers within the borough. The steering-group will have a number of sub-committees for (inter alia): curriculum; training; IAG and enrichment; and marketing.

The Partnership will be developed over time through dedicated project-management support for aligning the design and buildings brief with the education brief.

Common approach
The Partnership will have a common approach to marketing, with a single, overarching brochure outlining the offer available across all Partnership providers. To do that, there will need to be a common offer matrix, showing how learners can flexibly mix and match courses.

The application process will follow a common procedure, with a common form and, where possible, a common application timetable. To enable the mix and match offer, session start and end times will be common to all providers.

The Partnership would like to develop a common enrichment programme, with Richmond upon Thames College?s expertise at its heart, which will fully support learners and enable them to undertake opportunities that might otherwise not be possible at their ?home? provider.

Role of Richmond upon Thames College
Richmond upon Thames College will play a central role by continuing to provide an outstanding curriculum offer to local young people. The Partnership would also like to benefit from the College?s expertise in CPD, Information Advice and Guidance, the UCAS application process, enrichment and post-16 management/governance.

Agree that introducing sixth forms is very popular with local parents and expansion of Year 7 intake of existing schools would not be at all popular as schools that are so large get impersonal and children get lost. Expanding existing schools partly because Clifden had been given away to the Catholic church and insufficient sites for new secondary schools were available would be particularly inflammatory when so many years of portacabins and building sites have been endured already. However also agree that the sixth form proposals seem very vague. Surely a big budget is also needed for training existing 11 - 16 teachers how to teach A-levels including covering the time they are out of the classrooms being trained? They won't suddenly be able to teach A-level because RUTC is wafting about in the background and there is "A Partnership" with relevant committees. I have heard that some of the older teachers are planning to resign due to not wanting to have to teach A-levels and disagreement with schools becoming academies so there could be a lot of disruption coming up.

twocotbeds thanks and to you. We should be shouting it across our back gardens (wink) but "I have been shocked at how remarkably late the council has dealt with the massive shortage of Primary places recently. So this does does inspire me with any hope they will deal with the coming shortage at secondary level any better!" This is absolutely nothing new and the reason I am so motivated to ensure people understand the issues. My daughter couldn't get into the three primary schools within half a mile of our home in Sheen sixteen years ago whilst a close neighbout got into St Elizabeth's. Whilst going through all the hoops to try and get a state school place I saw minutes of the Education Committee that said they could rely on a "substantial proportion of the surplus pupils to find other options" so spaces need only be found, in a portacabin at a failing faith school, for a few other pupils. In fact out of 150 familes without the offer of a place at a local school less than twenty took up the offer and few of those lasted to Year 6. So many families I know are several tens of thousand pounds poorer, or have moved out of the borough, and it is why this borough has such a high proportion of pupils privately educated. So I do feel pretty strongly when yet another administration is seeking to perpetuate an unfair schools strategy.

fail on the wink !!!

Copthall - I think you will find those who are thousands of pounds poorer are so by choice. The local faith school is far from failing. No one ever said keeping up with the Jones' was going to be cheap!

noUggscuse I have no idea how Holy Trinity is doing these days, one would hope it has improved but the last Ofsted Report 16 years ago highlighted many areas in which it was unsatisfactory and needed to improve, but had a Headmaster who refused to concede there were any weakneses. Quite a few of the parents who did take up places on the basis they would work to improve it from the inside ended up falling out with him. l don't think you can level the accusation that anyone was wanting to keep up with the Jones's, Darrell, actually the closest school to us and most people's preference, had an even more mixed catchment, but an inspirational Headmaster. My mother, a teacher, was shocked by Holy Trinity, and the clearly demotivated staff, thought Sheen Mount was complacent but Darrell was one of the best schools she had ever been in.

The fact was that the Council had sited the extra class there rather than any of the other Sheen/Mortlake Schools, which have since hosted extra classes, because there was a shortfall of pupils in the older year groups, as parents defected, and they knew it would deter parents and minimise the number of extra classes needed. In those circumstances people did feel they had no choice, and mothers were forced out to work and considerable sacrifices made as a result.

If their website is to be believed, Holy Trinity is doing alright now:

We have had confirmation of our best ever results - at the end of KS2 100% of our pupils achieved level 4 + in English and maths and 100% of our pupils met at least the government's progress target - we are one of only five schools in Richmond to achieve this standard. These results put up equal first in the Richmond League Table. We are making great progress in working towards our target of becoming "outstanding" as soon as possible- well done everyone.

ChrisSquire, just curious why you think sixth-forms will be competition between Waldegrave, Orleans, Teddington and RuTC? Is this simply based on geography, as Christ's and Grey Court have similar results at GCSE to Orleans.

RuTC is in the TES this week again with plans of offering the Pre-U qualification, but stating that applications to them are already down on 13% on the previous year. Could this be due to the withdrawal of the EMA or something else?

ChrisSquire glad to hear it, I wasn't in any way commenting on the school as it is now. I understood that Headmaster retired, one would hope that it would turn it round. It can happen quickly too as we saw with Greycourt's descent into failing, another case of poor leadership, and then recovery. 16 years ago is a long time gone under the bridge!

I just wanted to highlight first and foremost that one of the reasons people feel strongly about the issue, and not just parents of pupils in the years that will be affected, is that historically many parents in the borough have felt deprived of choice by the Council for decades, even more so at secondary level. And, secondly to shed light on why Richmond Borough has the highest proportion of pupils in private schools. When the proportion is 10% higher than even more affluent boroughs such as Kensington it can't entirely be explained by keeping up with the Jones. I know many parents who struggle to pay school fees, and I think it is highlighted above that where schools have improved the Council have been taken by surprise by the number of parents who no longer opt to go private..

Cat405: my remark was based on my mental geography - which doesn't include Christ's and Grey Court! I agree that they should be included as competitors.

It will be very interesting to see what the flow of pupils between schools turns out to be; who gains and who loses; and who chooses - parents or pupils: As Cllr Jerry Elloy wrote to the RTT: The Administration also skates conveniently over who it expects to attend these Sixth Forms. Speaking as a parent I know that my children had had enough of school by the time they had finished their GCSEs. While one might wish one's offspring to do one's bidding there is no guarantee that they will oblige you, and most parents will agree that little is achieved by sending your child to an institution against his or her wish. I don't see that there has been any meaningful consultation of our schoolchildren about how they should be educated - post GCSE - and this really is an unforgivable error and shows an utter disregard for the opinion and good sense of our young people.

April 13: Richmond receives £4.9m to ease school places strain: Richmond Council has welcomed the additional £4.9m from the Government to address the shortage of school places in the borough.

The Secretary of State for Education announced last year an additional £600m for London local authorities experiencing the greatest need in managing shortfalls in providing pupil places. This funding is in addition to the £5m awarded to the borough from the Department for Education at the end of 2011 . .

Chris is this for primary or secondary school places . Also is there a way to find out how much is really needed and requested and how much was actually received ?

ChrisSquire Had an interesting discussion with a group of 19 year old ex Waldegrave/ Orleans uni students on this subject yesterday. They had had a chat with a teacher at Waldegrave who had expressed reservations about bringing boys into a school with a single sex ethos. They were very clear about the importance of friendships in making choices. Their view was that by 16 mixed friendship groups have formed, boys would want to "hang out with their Waldegrave friends" and girls would want them there. They didn't think results in the colleges/ schools would be so different as to offset social considerations. Teaching at the Colleges can be variable even between sets for the same subject but motivated students can get round that. They pointed out that the single sex private schools lose a number of girls to co ed schools in spite of getting better results. The other main consideration would be choices and as happens in private schools a few students are always going to go to the colleges for the choices they offer.

They thought it would be good for students to have the options of school sixth forms. The Colleges are very big and can be impersonal, students can get lost or sidetracked and some students do need a couple of years in a more supportive environment. They mentioned how envious they were of the support and advice their friends in schools got with UCAS, and just the administrative processes, as they had to chase teachers for their references, let alone get chased for personal statements. The colleges are particularly difficult if you do not go with a friendship group as it is very hard, even if you are gregarious, to make friends amongst a 1000 peers, many arriving with school cohorts. However they agreed that providing they could go with their friends, college is a good experience and good preparation for uni, and they would choose it again.

Obviously they thought parental choice was of limited influence (!!) but that it might swing the boys to Waldegrave over the girls going to Orleans. I did say that we parents always have the ultimate veto of the purse but it would be a brave parent who forced their 16 year old into a school where they had no friends.....

I am in two mind on this issue. I can see School Sixth Forms will have a lot of benefits but not for all students and there is also the issue of whether the money would be used better to meet the needs of 11 year olds.

Jeev: The source for this 'news' story turns out to be the [[http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/adminandfinance/schoolscapital/a00200794/schools-capital-allocations-for-2012-13
Schools capital allocations for 2012-13 (updated 20 March 2012 but announced December 13 011).]] DfE Capital Funding Technical Note for 2012-13 says: "Basic Need ? 2012-13 budget: £800m
15. The basic need allocation supports the capital requirement for providing new pupil places both in new or expanded maintained schools, and in Free Schools or expanded Academies . . "

New Kingston school hit by funding delay (Kingston Guardian April 08)- another blow to Lord Nick?s scheming:

A crucial funding grant for a new secondary school to alleviate Kingston?s school places crisis has been stalled by the Government. The new, eight form of entry secondary school on the North Kingston Centre site is due to open in September 2015 to help address the shortage of school places in the borough. But Partnership for Schools, which manages the bidding process for the department of education, has deferred the decision until after the London Mayoral elections in May.

Kingston?s executive member for education, Councillor Liz Green, said the delay was not critical, as it is expected that works will need to start in September 2013 for the school to open on time. She said: We understand parents? concerns but there are no changes in the current situation, we are still working towards the new secondary school. We are not at the point where we have to start building but we will get to that point. We are still putting pressure on the department to say we need to know what?s going on.

The school was due to be funded by the Labour Government?s Building Schools for the Future programme, but this was axed by the coalition. Kingston Council is now waiting to hear if its bid for a new school has been included in the Government?s Priority Schools Building Programme, which will use private finance to rebuild schools across the country. An announcement about the scheme?s outcome was first due in December last year, then last month, and both parties have expressed frustration following the latest delay.

. . According to the council?s latest projections, the borough will need 14 more forms of entry by 2020 ? eight at the proposed north Kingston school and six across the remaining non-selective institutions. A basic need allocation of £5.3m for 2012-13 has been used to expand the capacity of seven junior schools, as well as providing a new primary school in Surbiton. But, to date, basic need funding has not been an adequate means of funding large scale projects such as a new secondary school. This has been recognised and there is now an extra option within the Priority Schools Building Programme for inclusion based on demographic growth in addition to rebuilding existing ones in urgent need of repair.

For those people who are only following this thread, there is another one regarding primary admissions. The later posts in it are both interesting and relevant here -

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/local_richmond_upon_thames/a1405058-Late-primary-admission-what-happens

The comment "the head of education for Richmond said there was not a demand for catholic places in Teddington which is why hampton wick was expanded" is concerning. The thread also implies that a number of the places in the Sacred Heart bulge class have been allocated to non-Catholics, some of whom have strong reservations about sending their dc to a Catholic school.

This for me raises a number of points.

• the proportion of people choosing a Catholic education would seemingly have decreased in the recent baby boom. Is this unique to Teddington, or is the situation replicated across the borough? If this is an area-wide trend, a new Catholic secondary may not alleviate any upcoming pressure on places due to the birth rate increases. It would therefore only help in repatriating Catholic children to Richmond borough.

• if the proportion of Catholics in Teddington has remained constant then it means that Catholic parents have chosen community schools over a Catholic one. Given that Sacred Heart is surrounded by "outstanding" schools this would imply that a Catholic ethos may not be so important when the standard of community schools is very high.

• what happens if this new Catholic secondary is undersubscribed in the faith category? Central Twickenham parents may well end up getting their dc into this school after all despite the admission criteria! Far from proving popular for them, they may resent the Catholic ethos when what they really wanted was a local community school. A significant proportion of unsupportive non-Catholics may have a negative and detrimental influence on the new school.

• if Sacred Heart cannot fill all of its bulge class places with Catholics, why is a new Catholic primary needed a short distance down the road in Twickenham instead of a new community primary?