New Secondary Schools for Richmond 2

[BayJay]

I'm starting this new thread because the other one of the same name has filled up.

You choose to ignore the fact though that for many attending, for example, Heathfield Junior, their only real choice of school is Twickenham Academy and their educational chances are likely to get worse if pupils are drawn away by another school in the centre of Twickenham.

The Catholic VA school's published admissions state that it will cover the whole of the borough as admissions will be drawn from each and every parish in the Borough. All Richmond children - those children just happen to be Catholic.

Seenbutnotheard, Heathfield Junior is 0.8 miles from The Heathland School, which is an outstanding, inclusive, co-educational Secondary. There is no such option in South & West Twickenham or neighbouring areas.

I do so love the implication that a Catholic VA school will somehow be more inclusive simply because it would draw children from across the borough. It is a bit like asserting that by drawing pupils internationally, Eton should be considered socially representative in its admissions.

Seenbutnotheard " there is a wonderful opportunity for both 'sides' to be happy" - alas this passed when the Diocese choose to ignore the suggestion of our MP Vince Cable and a lot of responses in the pre consultation for a compromise solution. If the Tories care about fostering good community relations, it should not approve such a religiously and socially divisive proposal.
Chris interesting analysis but with due respect I have to say its looks like "too little too late" from the Lib Dems . Lib Dems did not object to 6th form consultation, Catholic school plans in the Corporate plan , allowing True and Hodgins to do a big "Ra Ra" about bi-partisan support ! If the Lib Dems are serious about taking care of community interest and think the Tories are not making good use of £40m - they need to deliver more effective results - perhaps order a Judicial review ?

LittleMrsMuppet - whether you choose to believe it or not, most Catholic schools are incredibly diverse. My children's classes have children with a variety of backgrounds - Eastern European, Korean, Chinese, South African, African, Caribbean, Irish, Indian, Central and Southern European there are others no, doubt, but these are off the top of my head.

Most of these children come from two parent families, which may go some way to explain the differences in free school meal eligibility, but there is a very high rate of English as a second language.

I personally think that the VA school accepting children from across the borough is a good thing, not something to be ridiculed and goes some way to dispel the myth purported by RISC that this school is likely to draw children from out of the borough, rather than within it.

Akhan - I think that RISC is doing it's upmost to ensure that there is fighting within the local community. Have you seen the latest RISC leaflet? It has been a bit of an own goal I think as this weekend two families of other faiths (yes, we socialise with a variety of people, shock, horror) have said that they have been upset by the tone of it.

LittleMrsMuppet - whether you choose to believe it or not, most Catholic schools are incredibly diverse. My children's classes have children with a variety of backgrounds - Eastern European, Korean, Chinese, South African, African, Caribbean, Irish, Indian, Central and Southern European there are others no, doubt, but these are off the top of my head.

Most of these children come from two parent families, which may go some way to explain the differences in free school meal eligibility, but there is a very high rate of English as a second language.

I personally think that the VA school accepting children from across the borough is a good thing, not something to be ridiculed and goes some way to dispel the myth purported by RISC that this school is likely to draw children from out of the borough, rather than within it.

Akhan - I think that RISC is doing it's upmost to ensure that there is fighting within the local community. Have you seen the latest RISC leaflet? It has been a bit of an own goal I think as this weekend two families of other faiths (yes, we socialise with a variety of people, shock, horror) have said that they have been upset by the tone of it.

Sorry, not sure why that did not post the first time.

I have seen the leaflet and discussed with some of my neighbours (including Catholics) at a birthday party. We felt it was objective and presented a side constructively that the consultation documents did not. What did suprise me was that there a still quite a few who are still not aware of the Clifden Road consultation !!
Ofcourse everyone is entitled to their own opinion and have their say during the consultation.

seenbutnotheard - and I can assure you that most private schools, at least in London and the South East also have students of all manner of nationalities too. Nobody is disputing that Catholic schools have an international intake. What I was questioning was the assertion that this is "social inclusion", when it patently isn't. You might consider it to simply be a happy coincidence that practicing Catholic families are more likely to be of the two parent stable unit variety. I personally think it regrettable that the flip side to this is that children from unstable families are effectively excluded from many of our best schools.

As I am sure you are aware, what I was trying to demonstrate is that Catholic schools are ethnically and racially diverse. This goes hand in hand with the Catholic Church's transnational identity.

Such diversity has found unity in common religious faith. It is shared core values, which are rooted in religious faith, that contribute to authentic social cohesion. This school will be one of 9 or even 10 secondary schools in the borough - we are not trying to take over the world!

As I also said earlier, it used to be the case that school places were allocated to those more involved in the church, (other than just attendance) but this has been dropped for most schools now because that was deemed to be unfair, particularly on families with additional struggles.

Here is the admission policy for the Catholic Richard Challoner School for Boys in New Malden:

?Where the number of applicants exceed the number of places within any of the above categories, the following tie breakers will be applied in the order stated, using the following criteria:

1. The strength of evidence of commitment to the applicant?s faith, where appropriate, as demonstrated by the child?s level of Mass attendance on a Sunday or equivalent (for Catholic applicants), or level of attendance at religious services (for applicants of other faiths). Applicants will be ranked according to the evidence provided on (a form) which must be endorsed by the priest or minister of religion where the child normally worships. Applicants who worship weekly will have priority, followed by those who practise fortnightly, and so on . .

1. Within each level of attendance (i.e. weekly, fortnightly, etc) the following tie breakers will apply: . . = (sibling; primary; distance; and lottery).

The London Oratory has in addition:

? . . (5) Service in any Catholic Parish or in the wider Catholic Church by the candidate and a Catholic parent (applications will be ranked using a scale of 0 to 4 with points determined according to whether service has been over the past year or more and whether service has been by a candidate and a Catholic parent or one or other of these).?

Akhan: you are very welcome to join the Party and contribute to its internal debates on these issues. It is a broad church and finding a consensus can be hard. One concern is not to let Lord True paint us ?anti-Catholic? and then by extension ?anti-faith?, which he is itching to do. Nothing that we say now will divert the Tories from their chosen path - only internal revolt will do that. In two years? time education will be a key battleground of the council election; by then the consequences of decisions now being taken will be reality - as to who will be proved right, we must wait and see.

We cannot ?order a Judicial review?: if there has been maladministration one can go to the High Court and seek one; if the request is denied one may have to pay the Council?s legal bill. Disagreeing with what is being done is not evidence of maladministration.

What it looks like form the outside is that the LibDems are laying low in order not to upset pro-Catholic school voters rather than sticking to their position, as clearly stated towards the end of last year. What they said then was that, while being pro-Catholic school in principle, it should not be a top priority and therefore the Clifden Road site should be used for a community school, and NOT for a Catholic school. They also said that in principle they are pro-inclusivity, which is a national policy. What aren't they saying that loudly and clearly when there's a consultation taking place on this very issue?

Yes, the Lib Dems Teddington newsletter paints the looming crisis in school places (which is of great concern to parents of boys in the Fulwell part of Teddington) as being the fault of the introduction of sixth forms (which are very popular with most parents according to the consultation results I have seen) and doesn't even mention the Catholic school or lack of any proper proposals to have an additional community school as a factor.

Chris are you saying that LD have got scared of Lord True's bullying tactics ? Standing for ones national policy on inclusiveness, co-altion agreement and position taken in favor of community schools is not being anti catholic or anti faith.

If LD cant be strong in opposition, they cant be trusted to be strong in administration and voted to power in 2014. Time to jump of the fence !!

The problem is, while I think the argument against backdoor social selection/exclusion by faith schools is important, I don't think the LibDems can take a very clear stand on faith schools because some of their councillors are involved in CofE primary schools as governors (e.g. St Mary's and St Peter's). I'm sure the school makes a valuable contribution to the community, and that school has a FSM profile not much different from other Teddington schools (e.g. slightly higher FSM percentage than Collis, and similar to Sacred Heart). But it's another school that puts church attendance above distance as a priority in its admissions criteria so not particularly inclusive either.

Littlemissmuppet you say
"You might consider it to simply be a happy coincidence that practicing Catholic families are more likely to be of the two parent stable unit variety. I personally think it regrettable that the flip side to this is that children from unstable families are effectively excluded from many of our best schools."

How very revealing, instructive and intellectually incoherent: it is not geneally a happy coincidence that "practicising Catholic families" of or the "two parent... variety" [- it's part of the commitment that Catholics make though not all of course can live up to in practice - though they are still Catholic. Nor is what you call the "flip side" the flip side. There are many what you unfairly judge to be "unstable families" in Catholic schools - the church and its schools after all are fuller of sinners. But I am cheered that you still thing that Catholic schools are "our best schools" - I am glad that you recognise the wider societal benefits - "our" - from having successful Catholic or indeed community schools.

jumjum, welcome to the thread. Its been running for over a year now, and one of the reasons for its success is that, despite our differences of opinion, we all try to be polite to each other and keep the insults to a minimum.

Everyone, we're in danger of going over a lot of old ground for little gain. RISC Supporters: don't forget that the arguments you are making over inclusive admissions have effectively been accepted, at least at a national level. That is why the Government's new legislation makes VA schools more difficult to create.

There are problems here in Richmond over timing (the process of establishing the VA school was started under the old legislation) and interpretation of the new law. I am still hopeful that the council might shift their position and, acknowledging the consultation feedback, accept the spirit of the new legislation. They could still support the establishment of a Catholic School in principle, but conclude that the VA model is not appropriate and request an alternative proposal. Of course, whether this happens or not depends on the internal politics of the local Conservative party.

Akhan - one advantage of the Lib Dems keeping quiet during the consultation is that if the Conservatives do want to respond to feedback by shifting their policy, it will give them the space to do that. I hope that if that happens everyone will respond magnanimously and encourage them to emerge from this with some dignity.

I think that's a good point about the Lib Dems keeping quiet Bay Jay. We all know that the Conservatives are unable to bear to be seen to be coming out in agreement with anything the Lib Dems say. The poisonous animosity of local politicians is one of the saddest things about this whole sad situation. Perhaps now the Conservatives have got their way over sixth forms so that existing secondary schools will be unable to expand to take in more year 7s, they will feel able to stop being so utterly reckless about the creation of additional secondary school places by other means. If they are really spending £15 million on buying Clifden and then neutralising it as a school site for most local children, plus the £25 million on sixth forms, they will jolly well have to keep their fingers crossed that the bid for a Free School in Twickenham is successful and Central Government comes up with lots of money to buy another site. I don't think local funds will stretch any further!

I acknowledge the force of the comments made about the line taken - and not taken - Lib Dem council group; I was not present at the meetings at which this was determined - if I had been I would be bound by the code of confidentiality that applies. Looking from the outside, I think that they know that the consultation is purely decorative and the Catholics will get the site unless RISC mount a successful legal challenge. I have no idea how likely that is. The RISC leaflet is silent on this point.

So they have proposed instead that scrapping the 6th forms and spending the £25 million on a new community school or the expansion of existing schools instead. If actual demand for places in 2 years? time is closer to RISC?s forecasts than the council?s, the Lib Dem policy will be seen to have been sensible and farsighted when the election comes in May 2014.

Cllrs Malcolm Eady and Stephen Knight have commented on their roles as governors of St Mary?s & St Peter?s at party meetings. They say they have tried to persuade the governors to move to an inclusive admission policy so far without success. They are only 2 out of 15.

BayJay: I agree with your comment above. Taking a strong principled line, as Akhan would like - and as I would be inclined to do - may be counter-productive in this case.

LottieProsser: the constraint on local funds is this: they are determined to freeze council tax as an end in itself and because they get a bonus grant from central government if they do (I think, I haven?t checked this out); they could easily borrow more as their credit is good but the repayments would push up council tax unless they make further cuts to services elsewhere in the budget, which would be unpopular. Parents favour sixth forms because they see them as ?free? when they are in fact very expensive to set up.

Chris, if a large community free school is approved for the borough then would the Lib Dems still think it was necessary to spend the 25m on creating another community academy?

Is £25m enough to buy a site and build a school? I seem to remember that Teddington School cost over £30m to rebuild without having to pay for the site. I would have thought it would be more like £50m.

If £40m is spent on sixth forms and Clifden for a VA Catholic school we will have to hope that Central Government pay for the free school/academy or whatever it turns out to be, or council tax will have to go up a lot.

Chris - I agree that most parents favour sixth forms and the main reason I hear is that they think that the schools will attract better teachers. They don't think about the cost because it's charged to everyone through council tax and not to them personally.

Chris, Akhan, Bayjay - I am really confused by the politics of all this and maybe others are more used to it. I also read that Gove now supports Cable's call for 50% non faith places in Catholic secondary.
Is this all just a soap opera ?