New Secondary schools for Richmond!

[BayJay]

Richmond Council recently published a White Paper outlining plans for Secondary education in the borough (cabnet.richmond.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=23719). They want new 6th forms in every school, and would need to decrease current Yr7 intakes to accomodate that. To offset those decreases they are talking about creating two new secondary schools. One of those new schools would be a Roman Catholic school.

The Roman Catholic community in the borough are currently disadvantaged by the "link" system (www.st-marys.richmond.sch.uk/Newsletter%20Link%20letter%20for%202011%20links%20(2).pdf). Because the Catholic primaries are not linked to any secondaries in the borough, their children tend to go to a combination of out-of-borough Catholic secondaries (which are mostly rated as Outstanding), grammar schools and private schools, though some of the girls do go to Waldegrave, which is not part of the link system. Note that there is no reason, in principle, why the Catholic Secondaries couldn't be linked to local community schools, but because many of their children have other options, they simply don't meet the "25% rule" required to form a link. (See an example set of transfer figures at www.st-james.richmond.sch.uk/Admin/Uploads/Docs/StJamesSchool_Parents_NewsLetter_270910.pdf).

This raises several questions in my mind:

1. Does the problem necessarily need to be solved by providing a Catholic Secondary, or are there alternative solutions that would benefit the community as a whole (e.g. reforming the link system)?
2. Does the majority of the Catholic community specifically want to be educated separately from the rest of us, or is it the case that, like everyone else, they simply want an outstanding education for their children, and find that the Catholic route is often the best way of achieving that?
3. If Catholics had more options for transferring to outstanding community schools locally (as many already do, to Waldegrave), would they choose those options over travelling to a single-faith school in a neighbouring borough?
4. I accept that there will always be very religious people who want to segregate themselves, but would I be right in asserting that there are also large numbers of Catholics who would be happy to attend community schools, provided that gave them the same level of academic excellence that can be found in many Catholic options?
5. If a new Catholic secondary school is created, it is likely to have an entrance policy that requires a priest's reference (as per the majority of existing Catholic schools). How do people feel about that?
6. If a state-funded Catholic School is created in the borough, would non-Catholic parents also like the option of sending their children there, provided they weren't barred by the admission system?

I'd be interested to hear your opinions!

SBNH, you are arguing that a Catholic school would actually provide the greatest benefit to the greatest number. Is that right?

Do you, then, agree that the overriding principle should be the greatest benefit to the greatest number of Richmond children? Or, if we could demonstrate that a Catholic school does not do this, that it prioritises the minority over the majority, would you still want it to happen anyway?

SeenButNotHeard, that's an interesting perspective, which I could understand if all of our other borough secondaries were 'ring fenced' for LBRUT children. However, the council is not allowed to ring fence schools in that way. It is against the law. Borough boundaries are not allowed to be used as a criterion in admission policies. That is why many other LBRUT children (not just catholics) attend out-of-borough schools, and also why many children from outside of the borough attend 'our' schools. There is a table in this report which displays Secondary schools offer data for entry in 2011/2012 by residence. It shows that 415 of our 1626 secondary school places were offered to out-of-borough children. It is common practice for children to cross borough boundaries when they live close to them.

The second petition that you referred to in your earlier post has been raised by the chair of governors at St Edmunds Primary School in Whitton. According to Google Maps that school is 1.9 miles from St Marks in Hounslow, and 2.4 miles from Gumley House in Isleworth. In contrast, it is 2.8 miles from the Clifden site. Are you suggesting that those children who currently go from St Edmunds to St Marks and Gumley House (78% of them last year), will switch to Clifden, just because it is in LBRUT?

Bugger, just wrote a long reply and my computer refreshed so I lost it.

Basically, I can't argue that in terms of a pure numbers game that there are more non-Catholic than Catholic children in the borough.

However, there are more than enough Catholic children accross the borough, who would like to complete their education in a Catholic secondary, and so I honestly think that as an option, this should not be discounted.

This is not exactly a new policy for the elected council, I believe that they did give a promise in their Manifesto to explore the possibility of adding a secondary school to the local Catholic primary schools.

Yes I do understand that you'd like for them to complete their Catholic education in a Catholic secondary and predominantly I understand that catholic children do already. I understand you fighting for what you'd like, of course I do. I just don't understand (and haven't yet been convinced by the "but we want one "!) why what the majority of childrne in the borough need is less important than what you want.

Other children in the borough are forced to go out of the borough for secondary school, not because they are following a particular desire for a school in tune with their beliefs, but because they have no choice, there are not sufficient schools of any sort at secondary level and this problem is projected to get worse over the next 5-10 years. Having a Catholic secondary will not address this as by even the Catholic admission many of these childrne are going out of borough at the moment and will therefore not free up many places in the existing school system but just exacerbate the problem.

I don't want the council to discount the idea of a Catholic school, I have no problem with them investigating the possibility, I just think that prioritising it in the light of the woeful shortfall in provision to all children is lunacy.

Your children get priority in out of borough Catholic schools (which by the nature of the London landscape are probably closer than most people are to their secondary school out of London). My DS has no priority at any school, anywhere in UK and could be offered a place at any random school that can take him.

Do you understand why I am fighting so hard? You have some choices - I do not. I have no choice but to fight for another all inclusive school as I see it as the only hope DS has of attending a secondary school somewhere vaguely near where we live that isn't grappling with failing school status. It isn't much to ask is it? Isn't that something to fight for out of common human decency before a religious angle is introduced?

and you won't be able to "have your say" - the meeting is restricted to the person presenting the petition speaking for five minutes, then three councillors speaking no questions or answers allowed (is my understanding).

But with the leader of the conservatives unashamedly plugging the Catholic agenda I wouldn't worry too much about not having your say

Good point about the manifesto though. I hadn't realised (naively) that investigating the possibility of a Catholic school would result in the priority of a Cathlic school over an all inclusive school. Why would it occur to me, its bizarre. Mind you I feel strongly enough about it to vote next time on this single issue alone, which, given that I live in a marginal ward with a school which has no link to a secondary school and where parents are extremely concerned about the secondary provision, our councillor has some explaining to do about how he reconciles this decision with meeting the needs of his constituents.

My guess is that there are Catholics in your constituency too.

You have given me food for thought Kewcumber. I do understand why you are fighting so hard. If you are in Kew, I guess your closest school is RPA. We all want want is best for our children, even if we don't agree, I'm glad we are fighting for them.

I'm sure there are Catholics - I know some of them. They go to our school!

Actually our closest school is Christs - but thats also religious and selective (though marginally less so than a catholic school would be)

And Christs prioritises Catholics over other religions and non-religious children.

SeenButNotHeard, you still didn't really answer the nub of my earlier question about an Academy. Would you mind your children going to a Catholic school that was an Academy rather than a Voluntary Aided school? Would it go some way to addressing what you want?

I'm going to have to challenge you on that, SBNH. "We all want what is best for our children, even if we don't agree, I'm glad we are fighting for them". Of course we all want what is best for our children, but we also have a social and moral duty to fight for what is best for all children.

That is why I am part of this campaign, even though I am in a part of the borough served by a perfectly good secondary school (and with a girls' school up the road - I have girls). I have nothing to gain from a new secondary school, but it is the right thing to do.

It is why I am not one of those parents campaigning against primary school expansion in my part of the borough, even though my dc's school is already big and I'm already in it. It would be better for my children if the school didn't expand, but that would be us just drawing up the ladder behind us, and I can't defend that.

Your attempt to equalise your struggle and kew's, when she is fighting for the chance to have one decent school option for her ds, and you are fighting to have your dc to have privileges at the expense of other children's needs, is just not on. I can't believe your faith asks you to just look out for your own kids, and not for anyone else's. Honestly, would Jesus have taken the children of the rabbis and taught them? No, he wouldn't. He would have gathered the children of the poor, the homeless, the prostitutes and the Samaritans, and given his attention to them. Would he have said, "You fight for your kids, and I'll fight for mine?"

Lots of things offend me about faith schools, but the widespread abnegation of moral responsibility for other people's children really chuffs me off worse than anything.

OMG hester liberation theology is not very popular these days I find

Seriously what is wrong with having a good, inclusive community school?
What is imagined will happen to Catholic children attending a non denomination school?
I grew up in a overwhelmingly Catholic country yet the schools were secular, I cannot understand the need or desire to segregate.

Did I get a bit 1973 then, sfxmum?

Just picking up further on my point about the irrelevance of borough boundaries (BayJay Fri 09-Sep-11 10:29:25), its worth adding that Catholic schools are organised by Diocese, rather than by borough. LBRUT spans part of two Catholic dioceses: Westminster (north/west of the river) and Southwark (south/east). The Diocese of Westminster specifically states in on its website that it has "sufficient places in Catholic secondary schools in this diocese to accomodate every Catholic child".

Also the Richmond Inclusive Schools Campaign has produced a map showing that there are 8 Catholic Secondary Schools within a 5 mile radius of the centre of LBRUT.

The evidence seems to be pointing to the fact that there are already enough Catholic Secondary schools in this area. They might not be conveniently located for everybody who wants to use them. However, it would seem reasonable from most people's perspective that families seeking a specialist kind of education should be prepared to travel for it.

SeenButNotHeard, does this information make you reconsider your position at all?

Also, sorry to hound you on this point, but assuming the numbers issue is a red herring, then does that make a Catholic Academy a more attractive prospect for you? Would you welcome the opportunity for your children to have a Catholic Education, and yet to learn alongside children from other backgrounds too?

What would be the differences between a Catholic academy and Catholic VA school?

The main difference that is relevant to this debate is that a Faith Academy could only have 50% of its places allocated on a faith basis and the rest would be open to the community.

The council has a policy of encouraging all of its schools to work towards academy status anyway (ie self governing rather than under council control). If this one starts life as a Voluntary Aided Catholic school then when it converts it will be allowed to keep whatever admission policy it has at the time (likely to be 100% priority for Catholics in line with existing Catholic school policy). However if it starts life as an academy then the 50% rule will apply.

Apologies for not including linked references for this info, but I'm typing on my mobile, and its all discussed earlier in the thread anyway, with links.

For info: the debate that has been triggered by the Richmond Inclusive School Campaign's petition is going to be broadcast live on the web tonight. Presumably there will also be an archive copy after the event.

People could be fooled into thinking tonight's debate was a referendum, given the rate that the pro-Catholic-School petition is climbing. The numbers don't really matter, as the stated purpose of the petitions is to just get the 1000 signatures needed to trigger a debate. Of course, a Catholic School with fully inclusive admissions would satisfy the wording of both petitions (though not neessarily all of the supporters on each side).

Some prominent names have been signing the Inclusive petition recently, including the head teacher of Waldegrave (or, at least, her namesake) and Cllr Stephen Knight, who is the Lib Dem council leader.

I guess the steep increase in the number of people signing the petition asking for a Richmond Catholic School are just a representation of the desire of Catholics in the borough for a secondary school for their children.

I can see both sides of the argument, however:

• A Catholic school would free-up places in other over-subscribed schools in the borough and so alleviate pressure on numbers
• Children who attend Catholic schools in the borough are currently split-up dramatically at age 11 as there are no linked schools to take them. This is upsetting for the children and something that a new Catholic school could possibly address.

Hi ChocolateMama. Good to have some new voices in this thread. Have you read through all the previous postings? That's worth doing because there's a lot of discussion about the Linked School system. The one thing that everyone does seem to agree on is that it certainly is unfair, not just to children at Catholic schools, but also to the other primaries in the borough that don't have links. The governing body of Sacred Heart RC primary resolved the issue for their own school, by appealing to the schools adjudicator, and getting a link created. It would seem reasonable for the council to extend that judgement to the other primaries that don't have links. All eyes are on the next Admissions Forum meeting, when the linked school system is due to be reviewed.

I can sysmpathise with the "splitting up" concerns, though I suppose that could also be seen as a result of there being so many choices for Catholic families, rather than so few. Children in Twickenham are also split up dramatically by gender at age 11 because of the Waldegrave effect, so I've heard some people say the Clifden site should be used to resolve that issue (e.g. by having a boys school that had strong links with Waldegrave).

Another option could be a Catholic Academy (see discussion above). What would you think of the idea of a Catholic School with an inclusive admissions system? Would you mind your children attending school with children from other backgrounds?

chocolatemama - the linked system is a problme for all non-linked schools it is emphatically not a catholic problem. In fact I would guess that my sons scool has a bigger problem with childrne being spread to the four winds than most catholic schools in the borough. How is another school that he can't get into going to solve the problem for him, his classmates or those in other non-linked schools?

I suspect that the dramatic increase in the take up on the catholic petition is more a function of the growing awareness that non-catholic people are not as apathetic about their childrens education as was previously thought and that having been given the nod that a catholic school was next in line it now appears (at the very least) that the Council will have to justify its position of a Catholic VA school contrary to their stated policy.

I have been honest about my personal view - no state funded reliogious schools but I would accept as a compromise an academy which has to comply with the national curriculum in all subjects and admit at least 50% non-selectively.

I haven;t ever seen a convincing argument that a catholic school will significantly releive pressure on the current secondaries - indeed the Catolic campaign repeatedly uses as one of it arguments (the other being "We Want one) that the majority of catholic primary pupils go out of borough to secondary (bearing in mind that "out of borough" catholic secondary is in many cases closer than the next nearest non-Catholic secondary)

I would rather see the link system abolished (in line with other London boroughs) than a selective school which isn't open to the vast majority of childrne who live in teh borough.

Who thought that bussing in small children from Catholic schools, to fill the gallery from 5 to 8pm was a good idea?
Very good turn out yesterday

suffer the little children (and everyone sitting around them)

Did they really? RISC were recommending that anyone with young children went home and didn;t stay for the actual meeting. I had (naively) assumed that the catholic contingent had just used adults to fill the gallery. Were they crying to order and looking sad and wan?

The archived version of the webcast from the council meeting is now available to view online.

thanks I tried to watch it last night but would only say the even twas closed - will try again now.