New Secondary schools for Richmond!

[BayJay]

Richmond Council recently published a White Paper outlining plans for Secondary education in the borough (cabnet.richmond.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=23719). They want new 6th forms in every school, and would need to decrease current Yr7 intakes to accomodate that. To offset those decreases they are talking about creating two new secondary schools. One of those new schools would be a Roman Catholic school.

The Roman Catholic community in the borough are currently disadvantaged by the "link" system (www.st-marys.richmond.sch.uk/Newsletter%20Link%20letter%20for%202011%20links%20(2).pdf). Because the Catholic primaries are not linked to any secondaries in the borough, their children tend to go to a combination of out-of-borough Catholic secondaries (which are mostly rated as Outstanding), grammar schools and private schools, though some of the girls do go to Waldegrave, which is not part of the link system. Note that there is no reason, in principle, why the Catholic Secondaries couldn't be linked to local community schools, but because many of their children have other options, they simply don't meet the "25% rule" required to form a link. (See an example set of transfer figures at www.st-james.richmond.sch.uk/Admin/Uploads/Docs/StJamesSchool_Parents_NewsLetter_270910.pdf).

This raises several questions in my mind:

1. Does the problem necessarily need to be solved by providing a Catholic Secondary, or are there alternative solutions that would benefit the community as a whole (e.g. reforming the link system)?
2. Does the majority of the Catholic community specifically want to be educated separately from the rest of us, or is it the case that, like everyone else, they simply want an outstanding education for their children, and find that the Catholic route is often the best way of achieving that?
3. If Catholics had more options for transferring to outstanding community schools locally (as many already do, to Waldegrave), would they choose those options over travelling to a single-faith school in a neighbouring borough?
4. I accept that there will always be very religious people who want to segregate themselves, but would I be right in asserting that there are also large numbers of Catholics who would be happy to attend community schools, provided that gave them the same level of academic excellence that can be found in many Catholic options?
5. If a new Catholic secondary school is created, it is likely to have an entrance policy that requires a priest's reference (as per the majority of existing Catholic schools). How do people feel about that?
6. If a state-funded Catholic School is created in the borough, would non-Catholic parents also like the option of sending their children there, provided they weren't barred by the admission system?

I'd be interested to hear your opinions!

Here is a link to information about what happened at the Cabinet Meeting. The purchase of the site was approved. However, my understanding is that the council can't just decide to gift the site to the Catholic church without some sort of consultation and/or competition. It will be interesting to see if any other groups come forward with a proposal for a school on the site, and what effect that has on the debate.

What the figures don't tell you, I guess, is the choice preferences. In our school, for example, a significant number did not get into their first choice Catholic School as it is out of borough and the distance rules still apply.

Reposting my post from 17:38, linking to the source of the figures:

h2ohno, when you say that "Catholic education will and should be ranked higher ... for any Catholic family" then presumably you have in mind the Canon Law that says Catholic parents have a duty to provide a Catholic Education for their child. While that may be the overriding motivation for some Catholic families, there is evidence to suggest that for others it is the quality of the school that is driving their choice, just as it does for many people in the wider population.

A little bit of analysis on 2010 transfer figures from St James' RC School reveals the following:

• Of the 19 pupils transferring to private school, only 1 chose a Catholic School, despite there being a private Catholic girls school just a short distance from St James'.

• 17 transferred to local community schools (despite there being no linked school) and non-denominational Grammar Schools.

• 85% of those transferring to schools in the State sector went to schools rated as Outstanding.

• The capacity of the cohort is 90, yet there were only 78 transfers. In the Sacred Heart case (June 2007) the Schools Adjudicator heard evidence that children were transferring schools before Year 6, in order to gain access to their local community school via a school with a link. It would be interesting to know if the same was happening at St James, but that is not possible without further analysis.

In summary, while its not possible to judge people's motivations from these figures, they do suggest that there are factors other than Canon Law at play.

Postscript: I agree that it would be useful to look at choice order, if that information were to be made available, and to compare with other types of school.

In the case of Sacred Heart, only a handful go to Teddington despite the link. This is mainly because it is nearly impossible for a boy to get a place at Catholic secondaries, such as Richard Challoner or the London Oratory. Also come year 6, not all children in the school are Catholic and therefore the link suits them brilliantly.

As for families not choosing St Catherines (private girl school) you must be kidding? The fees are out of reach for most families, particularly if you consider that most Catholic families have several children. Personally i wouldnt pay for a Catholic secondary, even if i could. Seems obscene to pay that amount of money for a school when that money could be put to such better use in the world. For those who do pay, my guess is that it is for an academically superior school, such as Hampton Boys or LEH. Scholarship/bursary provision also factor in when deciding which school.

I understand the frustration of non Catholic families to potentially see their taxes being spent on a school that might exclude their child, but understand that for a Catholic family,their is no alternative provision locally. You still have Orleans, Teddington etc.

A Sacred Heart mum told me that last year only 6 children went on to Teddington. But she said that the others mainly went private, that - in her words - "Sacred Heart is like prep school, and their motivation is a good school not a Catholic one".

I'm NOT saying that no Catholic parents genuinely want a Catholic education for their children, not at all. But equally, it is undeniable that a fair whack of those at Catholic primaries are using a family faith heritage to access better schools (and Sacred Heart does seem a lovely school - it almost makes me regret I'm not Catholic!) and may be as happy to access an excellent new community secondary as a new CAtholic secondary.

So that also has to be taken into account when calculating the size of the minority whose needs would be served by a CAtholic school - against the needs of the borough as a whole.

The majority of Sacred Heart year 6's definitely did not go private. This years group only had 3 go private. Many are devoted Catholics who are having to send their children to secondaries in neighbouring boroughs (Merton/Hounslow).

Sadly there are families who play the church card to ensure a better school for their child. Nevertheless in this borough i find it strange as all primary schools seem pretty good. Particularly in Teddington, as the only non outstanding primary i believe is Sacred Heart.

Better to keep our little gem a secret .

It is a lovely little school, and I think its size is a big pull for many parents. Its nearest competitor is Collis, where my dd goes, which is a fantastic school but absolutely enormous - over 700 children. Also Sacred Heart seems more ethnically mixed, which would be a big draw for me - if I was Catholic and could get in!

St Catherine's is interesting, and unfortunately unusual, because although it is a Catholic School it "a community that is completely inclusive and comprised of pupils from many different faiths and ethnic backgrounds." Because of that, it has pupils from many types of family, including Muslim, Hindu and Sikh. Vincent Cable spoke warmly of its ethnic mix in a speech to parliament some years ago. If our local Vountary Aided Catholic schools were to have a smililarly welcoming entrance policy I think it would be safe to say that they would also attract famlilies from different backgrounds, creating a positive outcome for everybody.

I just wanted to add that the debate about faith schools has moved on considerably since Vince Cable made that speech in 2002, so it would be interesting to know if his view has evolved.

Personally I would disagree with his view on a hierarchy of a right to grievance.

Just for reference (in response to some of the discussion above), here is are last year's Sacred Heart transfers.

As a RUT resident with my children in the state sector, I would be devastated if they used council funds to build a religious secondary. Build it for everyone or use the funds to make some of the less desirable state secondaries better. Building a school that will discriminate on entrance by faith, IMO, is not a good use of council funds.

The Sacred Heart 2011 transfer figures are interesting. So it would seem that even with link school status to the very well-regarded Teddington School that most parents do indeed chose a Catholic state secondary school for their children.

As it is very hard for boys in the borough to get in to any of the neighbouring borough's Catholic schools, so that may explain why the school has pointed out the gender specifics in the transfer information?

By my calculations that's 68% transferring to Catholic schools and 32% transferring to non-Catholic schools (including private and grammar schools).

It would be unwise to make any snap judgements on these figures, as it is not possible to judge people's motivations by the raw numbers. Some things to bear in mind are:

• The link to Teddington was only made in 2007, so those children transferring in 2010 would have joined the school when there was no link in place.
• Teddington School is heavily oversubscribed, so even if a link is in place, children would not get in if they didn't live close to the school.

Update: The Richmond Inclusive Schools Campaign have launched a petition to the council to request that any new school on the Clifden Road site (or elsewhere in the borough) is open to the whole community, rather than being restricted to Catholics.

Please sign the petition if you live in Richmond Borough & agree with it:

'We, the undersigned, petition the council to ensure that every state-funded school opening in the borough from now on is inclusive, so that no child can be denied a place in a good local school because of the religion or belief of their parents.'

It needs 1000 signatures to trigger a mini-debate at a council meeting this autumn, which will bring the issue to the attention of parents across the borough whose children will be affected by what is decided.

This is not about the merits or not of religious education: it is about what to do with this site, in a borough that needs to open two new community schools open to all by 2015 to keep up with rising numbers. No other sites for new schools have been found, or even suggested.

The petition has almost 600 signatures already. It is at:
www.richmond.gov.uk/home/council_government_and_democracy/petitions/online_petitions/epetitions.htm

There are lots of interesting comments on last week's Richmond and Twickenham Times article about the Richmond Inclusive Schools Campaign. It looks like the comments of one contributor (against the campaign) early in the thread were deleted by the moderator as they were pretty offensive, so if it reads a little strangely that is the reason.

I am deeply concerned and disappointed over the Council's proposal to open a new Catholic secondary school. Given the shortage of quality secondary school options in the borough, our expectation is that the Council shows responsibility,sensitivity and a non discriminatory approach towards deployment of tax payer funds for enhancing the quality and quantity of education in the borough.

1. The main issue is that in these tight times a religiously selective school is being created and given priority over creation of an inclusive school. The council has the responsibility for creating high quality schooling and create a level playing field for education for all. Hence this decision is appearing to be undemocratic and highly discriminatory to 90% of the non - catholic population.
2. We are already aware of the gaps and issues around secondary school education in Richmond, the failure of the erstwhile Shene School International and the massive task ahead that lies in turning around RPA. Hence it is only fair and moral to give priority to more inclusive schools. The demand supply imbalance is growing to exceed and there is a need now in the borough for a new state secondary school and defintely another one in the next 3-4 years.
3. I believe that the Council has 4 options here

1. An inclusive school (which could be an Academy or, subject to competition, a Community school) in terms of admissions, employment and balanced religion/belief teaching
2. A Catholic school (probably an Academy) with fully inclusive admissions
3. A Catholic school (probably an Academy) with a maximum of 50% faith - based admissions
4. A Catholic Voluntary Aided school, with admissions (and employment) policies set and amended by the church - dominated governing body.

The Council seems to have chosen the very worst, most restrictive option. It is even out of line with its own policy to convert all the Community schools into Academies, and government policy on inclusiveness at faith schools. How has this been chosen to pursue as a top priority when there is a looming crisis in secondary school places for the borough's children.

4. I am sorry but to get assurance that there will be a new inlcusive school opened in the next 3-4 years is just not good enough. I also do not buy the political argument that there is bipartisan support. My humble opinion is that if this is the case, then both parties have got this wrong and they should hold a proper public consultation before making this important decision.

5. As the parent of two young children living in Richmond, I am heartily opposed to the idea of creating a non inclusive school . I have no problem with faith-based schools, that have a non-discriminatory intake. As it now stands, we do not have a secondary school within a two mile radius of our house and we would be excluded from attending this new school.

6. Majority of us in the borough are facing the bleak prospect of either paying around £ 100k for private seconday education per child or moving out of the borough if state secondary school options in the borough are not improved.

7. I have now also signed an e-petition to support inclusive schools. Since it was launced last week, it has already got an overwhelming support of over 750 parents. I am sure that we will get many more to sign this in the coming days, once people are back from their holidays and schools re-open. Every child in the education system in the borough deserves an equal and non discriminatory educational opportunity and does not deserve to be left behind. Please sign the e-petition tinyurl.com/riscpetition1

I feel like the councillors and MPs for Richmond have not done an adequate job of determining local support before making a decision and are badly letting us down. I firmly believe that any objective assessment of the position in Richmond will lead to the conclusion that a new Catholic VA school cannot meet the urgent need for secondary school places, nor conform to government policy on Academies or inclusiveness

I also signed the petition. I forwarded by email to as many people as I could think of. It seems like the council has purposely pushed through the deal while everyone is away on summer holiday. The whole deal looks shady, especially in light of the fact that the North Kingston secondary school plans were scratched. I'm not opposed to faith-based schools, but discriminatory intake is not acceptable for a state funded school. Let's hope we get to 1000.

Please sign our official petition on the Council website for inclusive state school: tinyurl.com/riscpetition1

I am deeply concerned and disappointed over the Council's proposal to open a new Catholic secondary school. Given the shortage of quality secondary school options in the borough, our expectation is that the Council shows responsibility,sensitivity and a non discriminatory approach towards deployment of tax payer funds for enhancing the quality and quantity of education in the borough.

1. The main issue is that in these tight times a religiously selective school is being created and given priority over creation of an inclusive school. The council has the responsibility for creating high quality schooling and create a level playing field for education for all. Hence this decision is appearing to be undemocratic and highly discriminatory to 90% of the non - catholic population.

2. There gaps and issues around secondary school education in Richmond, the failure of the erstwhile Shene School International and the massive task ahead that lies in turning around RPA. Hence it is only fair and moral to give priority to more inclusive schools. The demand supply imbalance is growing to exceed and there is a need now in the borough for a new state secondary school and defintely another one in the next 3-4 years.

3. I believe that the Council has 4 options here

1. An inclusive school (which could be an Academy or, subject to competition, a Community school) in terms of admissions, employment and balanced religion/belief teaching

1. A Catholic school (probably an Academy) with fully inclusive admissions

1. A Catholic school (probably an Academy) with a maximum of 50% faith - based admissions

1. A Catholic Voluntary Aided school, with admissions (and employment) policies set and amended by the church - dominated governing body.

The Council seems to have chosen the very worst, most restrictive option. It is even out of line with its own policy to convert all the Community schools into Academies, and government policy on inclusiveness at faith schools. How has this been chosen to pursue as a top priority when there is a looming crisis in secondary school places for the borough's children.

4. Majority of us in the borough are facing the bleak prospect of either paying around £ 100k for private seconday education per child or moving out of the borough if state secondary school options in the borough are not improved.
5. I have now also signed an e-petition to support inclusive schools. Since it was launced last week, it has already got an overwhelming support of over 750 parents. Every child in the education system in the borough deserves an equal and non discriminatory educational opportunity and does not deserve to be left behind.

Signed and couldn't agree more - I am not anti faith schools but giVen lack of places I am staggered they this is th best alternative.

Changing the focus slightly, if the school on the Clifden site becomes an inclusive school, what kind of school would Mumsnetters like to see there?

As the council have said there is room for a primary school on the site as well as a secondary, it would presumably make sense to have some sort of all-through school, catering for children from 4 - 18. Would that be something that people would welcome?

Other options could be for an all-boys school, to balance Waldegrave, or perhaps some sort of Waldegrave-Clifden partnership where boys/girls are kept separate for some types of classes and educated together for others.

As Waldegrave Girls is the only local school with a science specialism, then maybe this new school should also be a science specialist school, perhaps combined with another discipline such as engineering. That would give our boys a fair crack at the sciences (and would capitalise on having Teddington Physical Laboratory in the borough, which has strong links with Waldegrave).

Whatever type of school it becomes, I would say that it needs to be distinct in character from Orleans Park and Twickenham Academy so that each school can stand on its own merits when attracting pupils. It is particularly important that it does not disrupt the very promising recovery of Twickenham Academy.

Any thoughts?

It's a good point- has any analysis been done of the effect on boys v girls in terms of school places? If fact there is Waldegrave is distorting numbers so boys adversely affected that might sway in favour of a boys school but I think a mixed school likely to better (else you run risk of similar argument on school places nor being inclusive).

I think Tories (or any party) that does support any option that is selective (as seems to be current choice) are heading for a hiding in the next election that will make rows over emissions based car park spaces look like nothing. The issue of school places has been getting progressively worse and it's been dodged for too long.

A proper needs analysis should be done to determine what are the main issues and gaps that need to be resolved in the borough's education. Public should be sought. Instead what seems to be happenning is a closed door process that is sneakily trying to serve vested and political interests

Perhaps we need to petition the council that if the Catholic School does go ahead, it needs to have a significant proportion of admissions that do not rely on faith. Surely that's the bext compromise?

I don't agree with faith schools on principle and have signed the inclusive schools petition.

DS1 is only 3.5 years so we have a way to go before secondary schools become an issue, but with the link system in place it's proving a bit of a nightmare trying to decide which prmary school to send him to!

Does anyone know if the council are looking at abolishing the link system? I had heard rumours but not seen anything concrete.