New Secondary schools for Richmond!

[BayJay]

Richmond Council recently published a White Paper outlining plans for Secondary education in the borough (cabnet.richmond.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=23719). They want new 6th forms in every school, and would need to decrease current Yr7 intakes to accomodate that. To offset those decreases they are talking about creating two new secondary schools. One of those new schools would be a Roman Catholic school.

The Roman Catholic community in the borough are currently disadvantaged by the "link" system (www.st-marys.richmond.sch.uk/Newsletter%20Link%20letter%20for%202011%20links%20(2).pdf). Because the Catholic primaries are not linked to any secondaries in the borough, their children tend to go to a combination of out-of-borough Catholic secondaries (which are mostly rated as Outstanding), grammar schools and private schools, though some of the girls do go to Waldegrave, which is not part of the link system. Note that there is no reason, in principle, why the Catholic Secondaries couldn't be linked to local community schools, but because many of their children have other options, they simply don't meet the "25% rule" required to form a link. (See an example set of transfer figures at www.st-james.richmond.sch.uk/Admin/Uploads/Docs/StJamesSchool_Parents_NewsLetter_270910.pdf).

This raises several questions in my mind:

1. Does the problem necessarily need to be solved by providing a Catholic Secondary, or are there alternative solutions that would benefit the community as a whole (e.g. reforming the link system)?
2. Does the majority of the Catholic community specifically want to be educated separately from the rest of us, or is it the case that, like everyone else, they simply want an outstanding education for their children, and find that the Catholic route is often the best way of achieving that?
3. If Catholics had more options for transferring to outstanding community schools locally (as many already do, to Waldegrave), would they choose those options over travelling to a single-faith school in a neighbouring borough?
4. I accept that there will always be very religious people who want to segregate themselves, but would I be right in asserting that there are also large numbers of Catholics who would be happy to attend community schools, provided that gave them the same level of academic excellence that can be found in many Catholic options?
5. If a new Catholic secondary school is created, it is likely to have an entrance policy that requires a priest's reference (as per the majority of existing Catholic schools). How do people feel about that?
6. If a state-funded Catholic School is created in the borough, would non-Catholic parents also like the option of sending their children there, provided they weren't barred by the admission system?

I'd be interested to hear your opinions!

The three RC schools on the Surrey side of the Borough are all single form entry too, although they are now each having to take a bulge class on a 3yr rotation.

I do remember noticing a few years' back that The Hollyfield School in Surbiton had something that looked suspiciously like a link system. I don't think it exists anymore, and I don't think it was borough-wide thing for Kingston either.

Out of interest, where do children from your school typically end up going for Secondary?

Thanks for your reply to my questions LittleMrsMuppet. Just catching up after a busy weekend!
I shall answer your 3 questions now below:

What evidence do you have that a new community school would be detrimental to Hampton & Twickenham academies
Firstly Can I say I didn't actually mention Hampton I was focusing particularly on Twickenham academy, but mentioning also RPA as in the councils predictions that will also be affected.
Taking a central point in Twickenham town centre such as King street (post code TW1 3SN) if the Clifden centre was a Community school there would be 3 community schools within roughly a mile of that point (by road not as the crow flies which would be even shorter):-
TW1 3SN- Orleans Park 0.4miles
TW1 3SN - Clifden centre 0.5miles
TW1 3SN- Waldegrave 1.2miles

Twickenham academy is the 4th option and would be slightly further away now compared to the others so would obviously lose 1)on distance as people may opt for the closest schools 2)As there is currently such a small number choosing TA as first choice (28 out of 210 places) presumably those currently not wanting it will continue not to opt for it ,choosing a new (and for some) closer school instead .

So obviously this leaves TA very vulnerable as it is still in early days of new academy and improvements are still in progress so has not had sufficient time to prove itself. Yes any school can become a good school with great leadership, but great leadership and public confidence take time to build and a new community school at this early stage would be a direct threat.

You can see by the close proximity of the 3 schools in Twickenham they are definitely going to overlap in terms of school boundaries.

Would a new Catholic VA school be detrimental to Hampton and Twickenham academy?
Def not as the children filling this school would be those who would otherwise be going out of borough for continuity of education so not in the academies.

How will a new Catholic VA school not detrimentally affect St.Paul's in Sunbury?

St.Paul's is not a Richmond borough school so this question is a little bit like how will increasing Christ's affect a school in Kingston? St.Paul's like other Catholic schools in neighbouring boroughs also shares percentages of its intake with other areas. However as applications for the September 2011 Yr7 intake far exceeded places available (434 applications for 180 places) I don't think they will find this too much of a worry.

Now may I just discuss some of your points:

1. You mention there are more than enough pupils in the local primary schools to fill a couple more community secondary schools if only they can be persuaded to remain in the borough or the state sector
   Yes Catholic children could be persuaded to stay in borough if they had a school that offers them continuity of education and follows the ethos they have experienced at primary school. The fact there is not this alternative is a major reason why Catholic children are forced to leave the borough in such numbers to find catholic schools elsewhere.
   As for those going to the private sector, do you not think that there will always be those that chose the private sector no matter how good the state schools are? People don't only exit state schools because they are dissatisfied with them there can be a number of other factors a)if their experience is private schooling they may wish to chose the same for their children b)they may believe that the best opportunity for their child is in the private sector with smaller classes, tailored curriculum, etc etc 3) a private school may offer a specialism they are keen for their child to pursue 4)for work reasons (eg those with jobs involving lot of travel) some may need to chose private boarding schools.
   
   In fact many people in this borough have traditionally chosen private schools for all of these reasons and will continue to do so even through recessions as it is a priority for them. However there are obviously those who chose private for other reasons . Catholics in some local schools chose a private catholic school such as St.Catherines or St.Georges because of the difficulties getting their children into a Catholic school, non catholic parents chose private as you have mentioned because they are dissatisfied with their local choice. It is those families we all need to appeal to by improving our existing local schools and providing choice.My argument is that the councils plans for expansions, free schools, new community school and the Catholic VA school will provide this choice for all of us over the next few short years.

2. The academies therefore need to improve on their own merits; simply taking away any competition will not help them with this
   The problem here is that if the number of children choosing to go to a school is halved the schools funds will be reduced too so they will not have the income to sustain their improvement or to regain public confidence. It will take several years for there to be a shortage of places (if at all) in the meantime TA will suffer and at the end of that period we could be right back to square 1 with a school nobody wants to chose.
   What happens if this happens to a community school on the Clifden site also? Then tax payers would be paying for 2 empty schools whilst parents continue to walk with their feet and seek schooling elsewhere.
   TA and RPA are improving schools and need time to show the results of all of their hard work. Hopefully in 2-3years time they will prove the same kind of turn round that Orleans and Greycourt have shown in the past.

The nature of community schools is that unless they are all under subscribed or you are fortunate to live in a catchment boundary, there is only one choice of school as the over subscription data is distance.
With the abolition of the link school system surely it is all going to come down to distance and if you have 3 schools in such close proximity there are going to be overlapping boundaries which means one area will have a disproportionately larger amount of choice than others. This of course means that others still without that choice will still be forced to go out of borough which is not a good use of their taxes or anybody else's for that matter.

Why don't you move to Hounslow for example?
Why don't any of us move to Hounslow ? They have perfectly good state schools too if you look at Heathlands School! Obviously Catholics/non Catholics are all tax payers in this community and should expect continuity of education within the borough they pay their taxes in. 6 Primary schools 1,888 children of tax payers deserve a choice too.

I do not think it unreasonable for the few that consider the school being Catholic to be priority to have to cross the borough boundary.............
AGAIN I find you making here a wholly unacceptable comment. few implies the majority don't want a Catholic school first and foremost and that is not correct. That is giving an incorrect and negative impression on the very deeply held faith of a lot of people in the attempt to back up your argument. This is not necessary or acceptable.

Now apologies will be retiring from this thread for next few days as busy family week ahead.

I have not come across anyone from a muslim, sikh or other minority group attend catholic school. As I have mentioned in my previous posts a catholic va school will further hamper education and integration of other religious groups.

Akhan there are certainly several Sikh children in my childrens Catholic school (in my ds class)and also children from other religions.

LittlemissM - due to the lack of a link we have children going to about 12 different secondaries mostly state. It one of the real concerns paretns have and why we are all very conscious of the need to help improve the standards at RPA. Currently our children attend a lovely small school with a real sense of community and then get scattered to the four winds at 11.

But apparently that doesn't matter unless you're Catholic

MIR I'm sure you know that RPA/Shene has many decades of rot to undo unlike Greycourt so there is markedly less confidence locally about it and a deep distrust of the council in secondary education.

"there are certainly several Sikh children in my childrens Catholic school (in my ds class)"
Mir4, unless they are baptised Catholics (presumably not) they must have got into the primary because there were spare places available. Can I ask which Secondary school will they be going to? They presumably won't get into any of the Catholic ones. What if they want continuity of education too? They sound like exactly the sort of people who would want to take up open places at a Catholic Academy.

"this leaves TA very vulnerable as it is still in early days of new academy"
Mir4, I disagree. The new school at Clifden would be more vulnerable as it would be unproen and presumably a building site (as TA is right now). You forget that TA and HA have a very distinctive ethos that has the potential to be very attractive in its own right. I have seen threads here on Mumsnet with people from out-of-borough considering moving into the area just so they can access it. They have some issues to sort out, but they are getting plenty of help and there are more than enough children to fill both HA, TA, Clifden, and Orleans Park in the very near future. Again, I would caution you not to build your arguments around the council's as-yet unscrutinised forecasts.

On the general point of "continuity of education" I would say that whilst they have the potential to be very attractive to many people, the Kunskapsskolan methodology at TA and HA does not provide continuity of education for anyone. What would you say to those parents who would like a traditional approach to their children's education but who in future will have no choice other than TA or HA?

"St.Paul's is not a Richmond borough school"
It is a struggling Catholic school, and a Catholic school at Clifden is presumably not going to help it. Regarding its "434 applications for 180 places", how many of those were first choices? It might seem that I'm nitpicking, but you used the same distinction for Twickenham Academy, so would seem reasonable to compare like with like.

ChrisSquire A move to distance only will encourage the creation of a small catchment area packed with school age families who will hog all the places and exclude everyone else.

The alternative is that a number of children from Hounslow and Kingston, whose parents don't pay taxes to the the borough of Richmond, continue to have priority over local children (both Catholic and non-Catholic) who currently have little chance of attending a local school of their choice. By local, I mean within walking distance or a short bus ride away. I can't see why giving priority to local children, over those who live outside our community should be construed as hogging the places. Places are limited in every school, so you're bound to exclude someone in the end. I suppose it's just a question of which children you have to exclude.

Mir4, something else just occurred to me. I know two practising Catholic families in the Twickenham/Whitton area who have moved their children out of their Catholic primary (I won't say which one, but I suspect it may be your local one) to private schools. Both of those families have signed the Catholic School petition (at least 4 signatiures in each case: mum, dad, 2 children, possibly grandparents too). If the new Clifden school has an entrance policy based on Catholic baptism, as is the usual minimum requirement, rather than attendance at a Catholic primary (which could be justifiable if the link system remained in place) then those children will take priority over the Sikh children that you mention. How does that square with your continuity argument?

Kewkumber - thanks for the info about the secondary schools, I really do sympathise. Have you seen this from RPA? According to Ofsted things are improving already, see <a class="break-all" href="//wwwww.richmondparkacademy.org/Websites/richmond/images/Documents/Incyte%20Comments.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">wwwww.richmondparkacademy.org/Websites/richmond/images/Documents/Incyte%20Comments.pdf
Is it really such a bad place? Do you think this would encourage more parents to consider RPA over other schools outside the borough? Sorry, not sure how to put the link in properly, but if it doesn't work it's on the first page of the RPA website.

Wimpykid, I agree with you. I think the link system broke down at the time when Grey Court's popularity dipped and it lost some Richmond links, and at the same time Orleans gained links that drew children away from Whitton (now TA). In fact, Grey Court was able to rebuild its popularity, once it had a great new head in place, through demand on distance. So the academies (certainly Twickenham side) should also be able to draw from a wider area for new pupils if there isn't a rigid block of children nearby expecting a guaranteed place at Orleans or Teddington. And as academies, isn't that the whole point?

BayJay - I guess, just as you have said that those signing the RISC petition might not necessarily have children, or be directly effected by the new school, this might also be true of those signing the petition to support a Catholic school?

Some people may just feel that given 1:7 of Richmond's primary schools are Catholic, it is reasonable to suggest that 1:9 of the secondary schools are too.

wimpy - yes I'm sure there has been some small improvements but that report does rather cherry pick - the 80% GCSE pass rate they quote very carefully excludes English and Maths when you include English and Maths those acheiving 5 A-C grade GCSE is 44% (up from 40%) wich isn;t (from memory even close to the national average let alone close the the results that the primary schools are achieving.

I do accept that it is very early days and if it continues to improve over teh next 5 years it will become a credible option. But at present it is a huge leap of faith for those parents who send their children there. The issue wasn't solely results it was also discipline/safety, you may know that the school had an appalling reputation locally.

how does a ctholic school get to be undersubscribed with catholics and take non-catholics? I thought the point many people have been arguing is that only a catholic education will do and better a poor quality catholic school than a non-catholic school?

Though it was a long time ago I gather that was the problem at Christs - school failing and catholic and CofE paretns choosing to send their child to a better local community school.

Mir4 "there are certainly several Sikh children in my childrens Catholic school (in my ds class) - several means how many and how did they get in only if there were spare places? pls provide more details on % non cathlics in yr caholic primary and seems exception rather than norm .

The most recent figures for number of baptised Catholics in the borough's primary schools are as follows:

St Edmund's 94%

St Elizabeth's 98%

St James's 97%

St Mary Magdalene's 88%

St Osmund's 80%

Sacred Heart 94%

Interesting figures - although variations of anything less than 3-4% is only going to represent one child per year in a single form entry school. They're mostly full up with baptised Catholics, probably exclusively in Reception but perhaps taking others higher up the school, would be my reading.

How would people feel about a Catholic VA school with something similar to The ASD Unit which is available at St James's?

Is this something that we could all get behind?

Bayjay I don't represent anyone but thought that a rebalancing of the anti Catholic school thread might be worth the effort or even try to push the debate on to what sort of school people want as an alternative. Seems to me that criticising the Council on the basis of what you don't want (a Catholic VA school) is likely to be alot less effective than campaigning for something that people do want. But while there is a strong view on this thread at least that you are against a Catholic VA school there is little opinion, still less consensus, on what you do want.
Sorry for butting into your very local discussion but if the implicit slogan for this thread is "Quality education in one borough" it is best that you carry on.

Cat2405, thanks for those figures. To me they suggest that there are more Catholic school places at primary level than there are Catholics to fill them. I have no problem with that, so long as there are other people who want to fill those places. However I'd make two points:

• Firstly, there has been some debate between RISC and the Catholic School campaign over the percentage of Catholics in the Borough, with RISC saying 10% and the Catholic School Campaign (and the Diocese in their application to Micahel Gove) claiming 14%. To me the difference is so small as to be unimportant (and the council rather diplomatically quote 12%), but interestingly the basis of the 14% was that the percentage of Catholic primary school places in the borough was 13.8%. Clearly if the Catholic primaries aren't 100% full of catholics then that figure can't really be justified in being used in that way. (However, that's just a side issue - like I say, I don't consider it too important to the debate).

• Secondly, like I said in a previous post, those non-Catholic children at those Catholic primaries won't have access to the proposed new Catholic VA school, unless attendance at local Catholic primaries is a higher priority in the oversubscription criteria than baptism (which would be unusual).

Seenbutnotheard - if there is a need for an ASD unit then one should be provided, but that doesn't really depend on the type of school that is on the site.

"Seems to me that criticising the Council on the basis of what you don't want ... is likely to be alot less effective"

florist, what we want is a consultation, and the campaign has been effective in getting the council to agree to one. If people want to post their ideas for what school they would like then we'll all be happy to hear them (I asked a similar question early on in the thread). However, ultimately it is for the consultation to determine that.

maybe the risc organisers will branch out next year and push for the popular humanist target of Christmas to be re-titled 'winterville' with the cessation of all council funded backing for 'Christ Child' orientated festivities, banners and illuminations unless they are fully inclsuive and non-specific in patronage? Maybe the cost isn't on par with education budgets locally but think of the national public expenditure on celebrating the birth of Christ?

Re % of Catholic children in Catholic schools. I can only speak for my child's school, where every year it is heavily oversubscribed with Catholic children in reception. Those who can't get in go to other local primaries (presumably their 2nd or 3rd choices) and either wait on a list until a space becomes available in a Catholic school, or decide to stay in the school they have been allocated to avoid disruption to their child's education.

In the meantime, some parents decide to move away from the borough, or some even move their child to a linked primary when they realise by about year 4 that they stand no chance of getting a place at their local secondary. As I think I've said before my local parish St James's is a very busy and growing parish full of very young children. I don't think it is true to say that in this case there are "more Catholic school places at primary level than there are Catholics to fill them". (But this is my experience anecdotally).

hamptonhillbilly, your comments are belittling Humanists. That does your arguments no favours. As I've said before this conversation has largely remained polite and respectful, so please let's keep it that way.

I can believe that is common Wimpykid - there is a lot of movement in some places because this is London even if some areas are very suburban. I thought the debate about 10% or 14% was likely to be because some of the Catholic schools had more out of borough children because they may need to travel further.

I'm an RISC supporter and I love Christmas Hampton Hillbilly! Everytime I dip back into this thread and try to catch up I am amazed by all the statistics you seem to be able to get hold of. Do you have the figures for the number of children starting each Secondary School in 2011 and which schools they came from yet? Anecdotal evidence in Teddington where I live suggests that the catchment of Teddington School is shrinking every year, and as St Mary's and St Peter's and Hampton Wick/St John's are both now expanding to 3 form entry there will soon be little room there for anyone who doesn't live in Central Teddington/Hampton Wick. So all the boys (in particular as girls head to Waldegrave) from the 4 form entry Stanley and 3 form entry Trafalgar will no longer be able to get in. If Twickenham Academy is full where will they go? If linked schools system goes there is even the threat of people whose children are currently going private sending them to Teddington. Plus parents from St James who would definitely get in on distance and are very keen (maybe not that many of them but a few).

Hi LottieProsser. here are the 2011 Secondary School application & offer stats. I don't think the transfers are published on a per primary-school basis. Sometimes you can find them on individual school websites. Otherwise a FOI request might get you what you want. Otherwise if you go down to York House you can ask to see the map of this year's catchment area for a particular school. The map for Waldegrave is online, but I don't think the others are (someone correct me if I'm wrong).