New Secondary schools for Richmond!

[BayJay]

Richmond Council recently published a White Paper outlining plans for Secondary education in the borough (cabnet.richmond.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=23719). They want new 6th forms in every school, and would need to decrease current Yr7 intakes to accomodate that. To offset those decreases they are talking about creating two new secondary schools. One of those new schools would be a Roman Catholic school.

The Roman Catholic community in the borough are currently disadvantaged by the "link" system (www.st-marys.richmond.sch.uk/Newsletter%20Link%20letter%20for%202011%20links%20(2).pdf). Because the Catholic primaries are not linked to any secondaries in the borough, their children tend to go to a combination of out-of-borough Catholic secondaries (which are mostly rated as Outstanding), grammar schools and private schools, though some of the girls do go to Waldegrave, which is not part of the link system. Note that there is no reason, in principle, why the Catholic Secondaries couldn't be linked to local community schools, but because many of their children have other options, they simply don't meet the "25% rule" required to form a link. (See an example set of transfer figures at www.st-james.richmond.sch.uk/Admin/Uploads/Docs/StJamesSchool_Parents_NewsLetter_270910.pdf).

This raises several questions in my mind:

1. Does the problem necessarily need to be solved by providing a Catholic Secondary, or are there alternative solutions that would benefit the community as a whole (e.g. reforming the link system)?
2. Does the majority of the Catholic community specifically want to be educated separately from the rest of us, or is it the case that, like everyone else, they simply want an outstanding education for their children, and find that the Catholic route is often the best way of achieving that?
3. If Catholics had more options for transferring to outstanding community schools locally (as many already do, to Waldegrave), would they choose those options over travelling to a single-faith school in a neighbouring borough?
4. I accept that there will always be very religious people who want to segregate themselves, but would I be right in asserting that there are also large numbers of Catholics who would be happy to attend community schools, provided that gave them the same level of academic excellence that can be found in many Catholic options?
5. If a new Catholic secondary school is created, it is likely to have an entrance policy that requires a priest's reference (as per the majority of existing Catholic schools). How do people feel about that?
6. If a state-funded Catholic School is created in the borough, would non-Catholic parents also like the option of sending their children there, provided they weren't barred by the admission system?

I'd be interested to hear your opinions!

Bayjay how would non Catholics benefit most from a Catholic school, assuming their mission is to support parents in the bringing up of their children in the practice of the faith- forming Catholics. i am not sure what Catholic school you went to but you seem to have respect for what they taught you (and I don't mean the formal curriculum)

"the community schools should be full of Catholics and the Catholic schools full of non-Catholics of various kinds inc cultural Catholics"
No florist. The Catholic schools should be full of people who want their children to benefit from the Catholic ethos. That ethos will mostly attract Catholics. There will be some non-Catholics and cultural Catholics. Their reasons for choosing the school should not be disparaged. They should be welcomed into the Catholic community.

The community schools would benefit from having some Catholics as part of their community. The Catholic children attending community schools would benefit from the experience of learning alongside other children.

Bayjay as you will know in Catholic run schools that are not oversubscribed with Catholic applicants there are many non Catholics - an average of 30%. across UK.

I think we have done the pros and cons of a Catholic school on the site. What sort of non faith free or academy school would you want on the site - what sort of admission arrangements - what sort of ethos?

I wish there was a good boys' school - as much as anything to counteract the 'Waldegrave effect' of Orleans and Teddington being so dominated by boys. But maybe a site with excellent sports facilities would be more suitable.

Is it assumed that a VA Catholic school would be mixed?

"What sort of non faith free or academy school would you want on the site - what sort of admission arrangements - what sort of ethos?"

A consultation should give everyone a say on that. If there was to be a consultation then I would be one voice in that (so let's not turn this into a debate about my choice). However, since you ask, my personal choice would be for a Science & Engineering Academy. At the moment the only school with a science specialism is Waldegrave, and that is girls-only. It benefits from strong links with the National Physical Laboratory in Teddington, which is a world class facility right on our doorstep. Boys can't benefit from that link at the moment. The Government is promoting science and engineering as career choices, because it knows that is the strongest hope for our economy.

As regards admissions policy I think that all schools should have distance-based admissions. When children attend their local schools it builds a strong sense of community, and the environmental benefits are obvious. I realise that can lead to problems with high house prices, but I think that is a symptom of (a) variable school quality and (b) poor affordable housing policy, and shouldn't be used as an excuse to reject distance-based admissions. However, in order to promote the particular specialism of schools I would be in favour of a small (say, 10 - 20%) quota of aptitude-based admissions. So, in the case of my hypothetical Academy, aptitude in science or engineering could be used in allocating some of the places. Aptitude (as opposed to ability) tests are difficult to specify, so I'm not going to speculate on what that might be. It could be something as simple as demonstrating an interest in the subject by membership of an extra-curricular science or engineering club. However, I wouldn't make it competitive. It should be about demonstrating aptitude above a pre-set level, rather than being the best in the cohort (i.e. more like a driving test than a race), with preference subsequently being given on distance.

I don't think a Science & Engineering Academy would necessarily detract from Twickenham Academy, which is a Kunskappsskolan Academy with a Sport and Technology specialism, or from Orleans Park, which is a Maths, Computing & Languages specialist school. I'd like to think that parents would favour any three of the schools based on the aptitudes and interests of their children. Plus, I'd like to think that my school might be attractive to Catholics too, as they'd certainly be welcome.

There now. I'm going out tonight, so you'll have to shoot my ideas down in flames without me.

wimpy - I was referring to twickenham and Richmond Park academy. I think by anyones standards RPA has not been "turned around" though it is early days and there are many decades of decay to address.

Catholic children are not "without a school", don't be dramatic they have the same schools available to them as I do (in fact more as they get priority at Christs).

I understand that you would prefer your child to be in a Catholic school but lets not pretend that their heads will explode and they will cease to be catholic if they don;t get a catholic secondary education. My best friend at school managed to be a practicing catholic in a good old-fashioned comprehensive school. My in-laws are practising catholics and not one of their children attended a catholic school. It isn;t an essential, you can;t possibly argue that it is.

I'm also going to take a couple of nights off from the thread. Have a nice evening Bayjay

Agree it's not straightforward in that the academies still have work to do to improve too. The opportunities and places they could offer to prospective pupils should not be ignored. The council's comments in the report circulated by Bayjay recently were extraordinarily disingenious, ie they were surprised that parent preference hadn't increased in line with "improvements" in the academies. It's early days, but I wouldn't say there were significant improvements yet, their grades are still not on a par with some of the more popular schools in the borough. To me, the council's energies should focus on increasing access to quality schools for all - both to improve existing schools and opening the doors for all to new ones. To close those doors to any child based on the faith (or not) that their parents choose for them, or what road their parents can live on might not always be avoidable, but where we can avoid it, we should.

just caught up on the discussions over last few days. Wanted to make 3 points 1) All options should be considered in consultation and public opinion sought - they should be evalauted objectively 2) Having attended catholic school, i would support if clifden was a catholic school with inclusive admissions and also for catholics to go to their local schools / academies - we need to let pupils select schools and not the other way round 3) On academies , they all need good intake from local neigbourhood - a schools results and ratings are hugely dependent on quality of intake - hence we should have everyone in the community support them.

Kewkumber - Oh dear, sorry, I don't think I said that Catholic children are without a school. I meant that it is almost impossible for the majority of Catholic children in the borough to get a place in a local secondary school, because the Link System prevents them from doing this. I think this is partly why there is such strong feeling about having a Catholic school on the Clifden Road site. Many Catholic parents would like at least a chance of sending their children to a local school, but at the moment those opportunities are limited to girls in Strawberry hill or central Twickenham. As I have already said, until the Link System is abolished I will continue to support the bid for a Catholic Secondary school in Richmond. We won't know the outcome until March, it's unfortunate that the timing of all these plans is a bit of a mess....

Jeev, I know what you mean about intake and of course the community has its part to play, but as you'll know too it's also about good teaching, strong leadership, positive discipline and school spirit etc. There are schools with more challenging intakes that do better, and I know some of their teachers - their starting point is highly aspirational for their intakes and this makes a difference. It takes a lot of factors to make a strong school. Hopefully RPA and the other academies are moving in the right direction.

Kora/Jeev - both really good points. There are many examples of schools which have become "outstanding" from "failing" especially in some of the deprived areas of London - there's one in Hackney, forget the name, but they sent several students to Oxbridge this year. Maybe our outstanding schools should be providing some sort of mentoring/sharing best practice to really get the less popular schools/academies back on track. Gunnersbury Boys Catholic school does something like this with other Hounslow schools. I think leadership is key to success.

kora fully agree - all those factors are critical. As a community we need to play our part too and contribute in a number of ways to make a difference at the academies.

wimy - it was florist who said catholic children were "without a school" didn;t intend to link my comment to you and the one to florist.

But supporting a catholic secondary because you don;t like the link system is an interesting approach with some flaws... what are you suggesting those of us who have children in primaries without a link but are not catholic schools do?

Perhaps we should be given priority entry into a catholic secondary?

I know perfectly well that many catholic parents (whom I know personally but have been very careful not to out on here, though I see one has been mentioned by name earlier) would not be campaigning as hard if they had credible non-faith alternatives. What makes me cross is that its easier for them to get behind the very organised catholic secondary campaign than it is to try to wade through the treacle of the link system and the underperforming secondaries which is so much more uncertain. Effectively what they are saying is "we need a catholic school because we don't have a good local alternative, this is a way of getting one and who cares about all the other children in the borough that have no catholic joker to play". It isn't very, well... Christian, is it?

I am feeling rather aggressive this morning so apologise if what I say is a bit snippy - not apologising for content though, just the tone!

Why is it such an abhorrent idea that when 1 in 7 of our primary schools are Catholic that 1 in 9 of our secondary schools would be so?

As I have said before (this debate really is not moving on is it? Michael Gove really does need to make a decision sooner rather than later) the current Director of Children?s services has stated that, on the Clifden Road site, a community school will do more harm than good, particularly for Twickenham Academy.

I can't see that it is 'Christian' to want the residents of Twickenham, that already have two excellent schools to choose from have yet another and that, if the school does not end up being outstanding they can choose to ignore.

Again - "If the school was undersubscibed with practising Catholic children (and that is what we are talking about - no other 'prove yourself worthy' criteria) then the debate about opening the school up to non-Catholics, who share the ethos would be more valid."

This new school can only ever serve a small proportion of the population, the question is whether that should come from those who happen to live in the vicinity, or those, across the borough who happen to be Catholic and have no natural progression from their Catholic primary schools.

I have been reading this thread for a while and I think recently a lot of posters have become very heated and said things that have come accross as being offensive or personally attacking others.

I would really like to thank Bayjay for starting this thread and moderating it so well.

Here are my own views:

1. Nobody has the "right" to a religious education funded by the state. And certainly not a Catholic or Muslim or Jewish or Humanist education as these are not the religions of this country.

1. If the academies are to succeed, everyone should support them, including Catholics, Muslims, Jews, etc.

1. If any new schools are going to open up that discrimnate by race, sex or religion, these should not be state-funded and should be fee-paying.

How are we supposed to teach our children to tolerate others and respect their views when they are not even given the opportunity to interact with people of a different background/culture/faith at such a young and impressionable age?

And as a disclaimer, where I live my DC are highly unlikely to get into Clifden Rd anyway so I am not motivated by that reason.

Sorry, but I am laughing at the idea that because my children are educated in a Catholic school they do not have the "opportunity to interact with people of a different background/culture/faith"

Hello Kewkumber - see BayJay's comment I agree that the Linked School Policy consultation should be completed before the Clifden Road consultation. The outcome of that could have a huge impact on the results.

I absolutely agree with this. The whole picture of admissions in the borough may change. It's somewhat unpredictable at the moment. The timing of these changes is a mess - yes the Council jumped the gun acquiring the site before the consultation process had begun and yes there should be proper consultation.

I appreciate where you're coming from. I have no objection to a more open admissions policy, but I fear that the Diocese will not accept this, I wish they would. 50/50 admissions would be an improvement on no Catholic option, but based on current numbers, it still wouldn't satisfy the demand from those who really want a Catholic education for their children in a local school. If the Diocese doesn't buy into this we may be left with nothing. The Council have already said they wouldn't go ahead with another new community school yet because of possible negative impact on Twickenham Academy. Also, I agree that the Clifden Road site is not the best location, but it seems to be all there is at the moment.

By the way, there may well be some Catholic parents who would be unwilling to send their children to a new Catholic school in the borough because it had no track record of success, so there will probably continue to be a proportion of children going out of the borough to continue their Catholic education (but that would be their choice). Also unpredictable.....

Sorry, but I am laughing at the idea that because my children are educated in a Catholic school they do not have the "opportunity to interact with people of a different background/culture/faith"

Seenbutnotheard, that made me laugh as well! There is such a huge diversity at my children's Catholic primary school! We have children from so many different backgrounds, cultures and children from different faiths!

Bayjay - Science and Engineering specialism is a good one particularly in partnership with NPL. A specialist school can only allocate a maximum of 10% of the places to that specialism and, as you say, can only be based on aptitude. But as you also recognise that is difficult to determine so many schools do not formally assess (they might for music but not something like Sc and Engineering. Certainly your idea of allocation based on member of out of school clubs would favour the middle class (it is actually very similar to a Church membership and practice requirement which you do not approve of).

Suzihaha - I don't want to talk about the Catholic school option - that has been done to death but discrimination on the basis of race is illegal whereas it is legal to discriminate in terms of schools admissions in terms of sex and religion in single sex and in faith schools.

The really exciting thing for me about a Catholic VA school in Twickenham is that it would 'include' children from all over the borough . It unites 6 schools from different communities from Barnes to Hampton Hill. It is not a school educating only 1 small area but a much wider borough community of schools.

The RISC proposals would at the end of the day only provide yet another school for the same community. It would not alleviate pressure on places across the community infact it could seriously damage the future of 2 schools for the children who already go there and the children who only have those schools as their choice.

I completely understand ladies that you are unhappy with your choice but please don't deny others a choice too or damage the only choice they have. The council do seem to have plans too for another community school as well as other options to release more places. Hopefully a site can be found that will be in a location that will release more choice to more communities across the borough rather than be just limited to 1 as a community school on the Clifden site would do. Together Orleans, Teddington, Greycourt, Waldegrave, Twickenham Academy, Hampton Academy, RPA, Christs Cof E and a Catholic school provide an inclusive education giving the opportunity of continuity of education for all. Some at this point are more successful than others but what they all have in common is that they are part of the councils plan for improvements across the borough and there is a bigger picture here.

So please can we stop the regular belittling of Catholics , the insinuations that Catholics don't want a school for faith reasons, the use of language on here in describing others faith 'hypocrital', 'tosh','Catholic joker card' 'alice in wonderland' etc etc . This is offensive, does not aid community spirit and is just not needed.

sorry florist cross posted!

Item on Catholic school admissions on BBC London news just now - the use of points-based systems and features, mainly, Coloma Girls' School and briefly mentions Cardinal Vaughan. I'll try and find a link to it. If not, could be on after the 10 O'Clock news (though not sure what with Children In Need on tonight).