New Secondary schools for Richmond!

[BayJay]

Richmond Council recently published a White Paper outlining plans for Secondary education in the borough (cabnet.richmond.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=23719). They want new 6th forms in every school, and would need to decrease current Yr7 intakes to accomodate that. To offset those decreases they are talking about creating two new secondary schools. One of those new schools would be a Roman Catholic school.

The Roman Catholic community in the borough are currently disadvantaged by the "link" system (www.st-marys.richmond.sch.uk/Newsletter%20Link%20letter%20for%202011%20links%20(2).pdf). Because the Catholic primaries are not linked to any secondaries in the borough, their children tend to go to a combination of out-of-borough Catholic secondaries (which are mostly rated as Outstanding), grammar schools and private schools, though some of the girls do go to Waldegrave, which is not part of the link system. Note that there is no reason, in principle, why the Catholic Secondaries couldn't be linked to local community schools, but because many of their children have other options, they simply don't meet the "25% rule" required to form a link. (See an example set of transfer figures at www.st-james.richmond.sch.uk/Admin/Uploads/Docs/StJamesSchool_Parents_NewsLetter_270910.pdf).

This raises several questions in my mind:

1. Does the problem necessarily need to be solved by providing a Catholic Secondary, or are there alternative solutions that would benefit the community as a whole (e.g. reforming the link system)?
2. Does the majority of the Catholic community specifically want to be educated separately from the rest of us, or is it the case that, like everyone else, they simply want an outstanding education for their children, and find that the Catholic route is often the best way of achieving that?
3. If Catholics had more options for transferring to outstanding community schools locally (as many already do, to Waldegrave), would they choose those options over travelling to a single-faith school in a neighbouring borough?
4. I accept that there will always be very religious people who want to segregate themselves, but would I be right in asserting that there are also large numbers of Catholics who would be happy to attend community schools, provided that gave them the same level of academic excellence that can be found in many Catholic options?
5. If a new Catholic secondary school is created, it is likely to have an entrance policy that requires a priest's reference (as per the majority of existing Catholic schools). How do people feel about that?
6. If a state-funded Catholic School is created in the borough, would non-Catholic parents also like the option of sending their children there, provided they weren't barred by the admission system?

I'd be interested to hear your opinions!

why the need to follow each item with a comment about the Catholic Faith and teachings? (you missed this out!)
Can't imagine it would go down as well on a website if they talked about Jewish or Muslim faith and teachings !

priviet - you are wrong in saying that there is anything anti - catholic on their web site. Whilst I will like to have a Catholic school, I have not come across anything anti religious from anyone in RISC and we should not undermine them for that reason. This debate is about type of school and not religion. Unfortunately watching the council webcast , our politicians made an utter mess of it!

Mir4, I'm grateful to Jeremy Rodell for setting up the RISC campaign. I think he is running it very well, and has taken a lot of unsubstatiated personal abuse. He recognises that not everyone has the same (Humanist) world view as him, so he has widened the campaign to include those with other reasons for wanting inclusive schools. People are supporting his campaign with their eyes open, and often because they have personal experience of problems with local school admissions.

Where on earth do you get your information about where he sends his children to school? I thought he didn't have any children!

priviet, I can't see anything about "the Catholic faith and teachings". I can only see statements about Catholic VA school policy (not the same thing at all!). Please can you copy in some specific phrases that you disagree with so I can understand what you mean.

SHY6 -thought the meeting went quite well, there were alot of good valid points made.
With regards to the site, if it is not anti-Catholic...why have comments about the Catholic faith on there? ...people commenting on the situation in Belfast!!..goodness me ...this is the UK !! someone making an unbelievable comment about not wanting to listen to a teacher when he was younger, who was teaching him because he was not Catholic!!!...did he not think that if the teacher was 'not any good because he was a protestant' the school would never have employed him!! ...having a 16 year old saying that we teach children that because he is gay that he is evil!!
Where are these supporters from???

priviet, again, people will have to make their own judgements on whether they agree with those individuals' reasons for supporting the campaign. I've no doubt that they are sincerely held views by local people.

yes, Bayjay, but why have any of these comments on the site at all, why has Jeremy Rodell allowed these comments on the site, if the name of it is Richmond Inclusive Schools Campaign ?? and they say they are not anti faith...comments like these should not be put on there, surely isn't there objective about admissions policy? !!

priviet, I'm not following your logic. I don't think the comments are anti-faith or anti-Catholic. I think they are anti-non-inclusive-schools. Like I said, people have different reasons for being anti-non-inclusive-schools, and those comments represent some of those reasons.

but they are only talking about the Catholic faith and Catholic teachings - do you not see that?? i see the word Catholic all over the pages of the site, like i said, they are not only talking about admissions policies, they are centering on one religion!

Priviet, of course they are only centering on one religion. There is only one religion that is asking for its own new VA school in the borough.

I have to say i agree with Priviet there is a lot of very offensive stuff out there both in the papers, on this website and elsewhere. I really apologise if I ranted a few mins ago (not my usual nature)but this issue has upset me so much. I do feel that with the rise of the RISC campaign that a lot of religious intolerance has outed and I know that many good people out there would like to distance themselves from that and discuss their real concerns . We are all worried about our childrens schooling because that is our job as parents. For the record I have no prob with private or state schooling we are all at the end of the day just trying to do the best we can for our children and that is what really matters.

yes, bayjay, but you said their campaign is only about inclusive schools and admissions policies...they say they are not anti-Catholic, then why mention it on their site? Surely, just talk about inclusive schools??

Mir4, I have seen offensive stuff on both sides of the argument. I don't like offensive stuff, and I've tried my best to calm it down on the very few occasions that its appeared on this thread.

There is certainly a lot of offensive stuff in the wider debate about faith schools on a national level. However, I have been impressed at how little of that has crept into the local debate.

People do feel strongly about the issues, on both sides. Personal abuse and accusations of 'hidden agendas' should be kept out of it, and we should try to concentrate on the issues. Those who abuse JR for his Humanist beliefs are just as bad as those who make offensive remarks about Catholics.

priviet, the RISC campaign has been triggered by the proposal for a Catholic school on the Clifden site. That is why people are referring to their experience of Catholic schools in their comments. However, the petition wording has been made more general so that it can be applied to any other sites that the council might propose in the future, and any other type of VA school that might be proposed in the future. If somebody proposed a Muslim school next door to where you live, the campaign would be in a strong position to focus on that too, without starting from scratch, and no doubt another wave of comments would arise that reflected people's experiences of Muslim schools (though as we don't have a tradition of those in this country, the nature of the comments would probably be different).

The people making those comments feel strongly because of their personal experiences, and I wouldn't agree that their comments are anti-faith or anti-catholic.

i do see your point, however, they are quite odd comments to have on a website being run by intelligent people!

this debate still has a long way to go.........

priviet, not tonight it hasn't. I'm off to bed. Night night!

same here!

I can sympathise with Mir4's worry about intolerance but I also find it rather disturbing that Jeremy Rodell is getting attacked personally. As I'm all for democracy and accountability, I admire local activists who are prepared to debate their points with the council - just as I appreciate the commitment that has gone into the catholic school campaign too even if I'm not persuaded about its priority. I'm looking forward to seeing the webcast to see how this debate has gone tonight.

I respect JR for his beliefs and he is totally entitled to express his views. My only concern is when those views may translate into divisions between us as parents in our community over faith lines. Questions have to be asked when issues of Faith schooling are publicaly debated and raised by a person who is part of a group that publicaly state they want the 'end to faith schools'. People need to be certain exactly what it is they are signing up to so they can decide if it is the most appropriate channel for them to debate in. I am not sure what happened tonight at the meeting (will try to catch up tomorrow) but our elected representatives are there for us all to debate and raise issues from every viewpoint and I really hope this process will answer all of our questions from whatever our standpoint over the next few weeks

BayJay thanks a lot for moderating this extremely sensitive discussion - I hope we can continue it constructively. A person stating that they have been discrimated by a schools admission/ recruitment policy needs to be respected and understood carefully and not be deemed as anti Catholic/ religious.
People signing the Catholic VA school should also be clear that this type of school will give priority to Catholics ( in Richmond and outside) over other Richmond kids. When there are projected shortages of school places in 2-3 yrs time, the other side has valid concerns. Do we really want to not love our neighbours as ourselves and not see our kids and their kids not go to a local school together? Do we really want to sow seeds of discrimination in young minds/ What about after school activities - football teams, ballet classes etc, do we want them to be also divided on religious lines ?
Catholic academy that has balanced curriculum to cater to all needs and admissions open to everyone could show greater tolerance and respect for our neighbours. Thanks for sharing the links on COE inckusive schools.

Mir4, the BHA (to which the SW London Humanist Group are affiliated) do campaign for "an end to [publicly funded] faith schools." Or rather, they campaign "that state-funded religious schools are phased out by absorption into a reformed community school system in which religious young people are offered facilities for voluntary worship and other "accommodations" in line with developing anti-discrimination law".

However, that is not quite so controversial as you are implying. They are not campaigning for an end to faith. The BHA would respect other people's right to hold a religious faith.

There are certainly many individuals nationally who express very anti-faith views but they speak for themselves rather than for the BHA. Often they have such strident views because of personal experiences that have made them angry. Often their views are clumsily expressed. The same is true of people who hold opposing views.

If faith schools were to adopt the National Framework for RE, or a future equivalent, in line with the wishes of Accord, then as well as learning about their own faith, and other world faiths, children would learn about secular viewpoints. There are many adults that wish they had had the opportunity to learn about secular viewpoints at school. Sometimes it is the very fact that they didn't have that opportunity that makes them so angry.

BayJay: the definitive resolution passed was:

?This Council resolves to consult all parents of children at the Borough?s maintained primary schools about the type of school places to be provided on the Clifden Road site, with options to include a new community school or a new Roman Catholic School. In the light of the results of this consultation, the Cabinet should recommend to full Council the type of school to be provided on the site.?

I think my position has altered a little overnight.

The Church of England is the only established religion in the UK. That means it is the only official state religion. It dates back to the time Christianity hit these shores in about 600 or thereabouts, had an affiliation with Rome until Henry VIII's intervention, and subsequently has a interest in and responsibility for both religious and social inclusion matters in the UK.

Other religions in the UK are not established. In other countries they might be, but not here.

I don't think any religion should be able to set up and run state funded schools unless they too become established with the associated commitment to matters relating to social inclusion, equality, and so on.

That would get over the danger of partisan schooling, I think. So in Richmond's case, RC schools should be privately established and funded, and any C of E schools should have completely open and inclusive admissions policies, otherwise they should become independent as well.

In the future I imagine a situation where disestablishment takes place, and the social contract can be renegotiated, so to speak.

Correction: this version is in fact the original Lib Dem motion NOT the text of the motion as amended by the Tory amendment, whose text I do not have & which is not on the borough website; nor is the webcast available to check as it is being archived.

BoffinMum, good morning, I hope you didn't lie awake all night thinking about this!

The Government's Free School and Academy legislation allows religious groups to set up publicly funded schools, although all such schools (as opposed to conversions) need to have at least 50% open admissions. The same rule doesn't apply to VA schools, which is why our council's choice of a VA school over an Academy is so controversial for many people (especially as they also have a policy of encouraging all existing schools to Academy status).

People might be interested to know that there is a call for an Islamic school in neighbouring Hounslow. Given that they already have CofE and Catholic secondary VA schools, it is understandable that other groups would want equivalent schools. However, its not hard to imagine a time in the future when a lot more of our schools are segregated along religious lines, and many people are uncomfortable with that.