Elderly parents want to move to France

[Nighttimeistherightime]

My Mum and stepdad currently live in Spain. They have decided (age 76 and 82) that they want to move to France. They have lived all over the world but have previously been part of thriving ex pat communities. I’ve tried to explain that France is a very different country. In my experience you have to speak French fluently- neither of them do. They don’t even speak Spanish! They are looking at property in rural areas and seem to think that it’ll be easy to assimilate. I’ve tried explaining how tricky it will be and how isolated they might feel but to no avail. Mum has complex medical needs, currently she is well looked after with established contact with her dr in Spain. I think it’s madness to start again as pensioners. Mum has mobility issues so they only really go to shops and restaurants and even then don’t walk far, so won’t be able to explore the area or enjoy days out.
AIBU to keep pointing out what I think are obvious issues or are they right in thinking that low property prices will give them a better standard of living? I’ve always supported them and been proud of their adventurous spirit but this move seems like a step backwards. I’d appreciate the opinion of anyone with more experience- maybe I’m wrong to worry.

I agree with you there. Where my dad parents had a holiday home there were trains but few buses.

The bureaucracy is a nightmare. Endless too.

Inheritance, I think it used to be the Roman law where anyone could challenge a will, think it’s changed now. But parents both had complex wills drawn up as they weren’t married.

Their local GP was fairly near but you needed a car or taxi to get there.

The area is Jonzac which is Charente maritime, half way between Bordeaux and La Rochelle. Quite a big British ex pat community there but since Brexit this may have dwindled. Locals apart from in tourist office wouldn’t or couldn’t speak English and could be quite rude eg in tabacs (newsagent/bar). So a good standard of French is essential. All English people I know who’ve moved to France take French lessons.

I don't think they will be able to move anyway. Freedom of movement went when Brexit came along. If they've been in Spain since before Brexit they will have the right to continue living in Spain and have the same rights as beforehand as part of the withdrawal agreement but that does not include the freedom of movement rights. There was a lot of discussion about this at the time as to whether people who were settled in the EU before Brexit would have the right to live and work in another country as before but it was decided that this would not be the case and they'd only maintain their rights in the country they were living in. (This caused me a problem as I live in one EU country near the border with another and sometimes had some freelance contracts in the other country which I had to stop until I became a citizen of the EU country where I live).
Tell them they'll need to look into visas etc as they no longer have the right of free movement as before.

Moving to rural France at their age is batshit and I would be discouraging them. It's madness on medical grounds for one thing.
They should stay where they are.

We came back from France when DH had a health scare there. Our neighbours were fantastic, but we realized that if the same thing happened again, we wanted to be near family. Now in the UK and our daughter lives 5 minutes away.

There was no way that DH could have coped in France if he was left on his own. He speaks very basic French and wouldn't even have been able to arrange for the house to be sold.

You really need to spell it out to your parents that what they are contemplating is absolutely mad.

i thought you needed a visa to go to live in France -what was all the hooha about Brexit?

As you're already aware, this is a terrible plan.
My parents retired to rural France in their 50s, over 30 years ago, so had residency and were in the health system pre-Brexit. Even so, the last 7-8 or years have been very hard, with Mum dying there 7 years ago and my dad (86 now) declining but not wanting to leave ever since.

Yes, the healthcare system can be good, but there are gaps in it. Things seem to be ignored which would be sorted here, because they want to keep elderly residents at home, so seem to turn a blind eye. No waiting for anything though.

And of course, rurally, everything is a drive, sometimes a pretty long drive, away. There are taxi-ambulances, if you can arrange one, but normal taxis seem non-existent. Relying on friends can be tricky. Your parents wouldn't even have a social circle to turn to. We'd noticed that friends and neighbours had faded into the background over the last few years, presumably terrified at the prospect of being responsible for him (I don't blame them, to be honest). I know people talked about us (his children), thinking we were neglecting him.

For his last 6 months there we took on a local lady as his PA. She speaks excellent English and has been a life-saver, dealing with bureaucracy, tax which would Dad wouldn't cope with any longer, taking him to appointments etc. It was hard to get him to accept he needed the help (he's never had anyone working for him to clean/garden etc), but he came to like and rely on her.

After some health issues, we finally managed to persuade him to return to the UK last spring. We'd originally looked at retirement flats with a warden, but it became clear that he wouldn't cope somewhere new independently so we found a lovely home. Several professionals have commented that he probably would have managed independently if he'd made the move some years before, but he'd left it too late.

Overall, my parents had 25+ years of very happy retirement, but they should have planned for being older and not pretended it wouldn't happen to them. The upshot has been a very hard and dispiriting time for my sister and me with endless trips back and forth and our own lives put on the back-burner, at the time our parents were enjoying their escape.

I don't envy your situation. If your parents have capacity, you can't stop them doing what they want. But perhaps you should talk to them and point out how hard it could be for you. Perhaps invent a good friend who's going through a similar situation with parents who've declined? If they insist on going, try to find a contact who can be paid to help them, who knows all the systems. Dad's PA has been worth her weight in gold and is still working for him as we try to sell his house.

Good luck.

I think the key is to plan their exit home when they cannot cope. I’d certainly not be offering to make continual visits. Bed and lying in it come to mind. It’s selfish to expect dc to come running over all the time. Do they have the money for a PA? Are they moving to save money? Could they return to uk?

My Dad lives in rural France and has done for 10 years (moved in his mid 60’s). He picks up languages quickly and speaks fluent French now. His village is tiny and nobody speaks English, they were very welcoming though especially when my Dad spoke to them in French. They need to drive everywhere, the local town was without a GP for more than a year so needed to drive even further. Public transport is nearly non existent. There’s still lots of paper based admin which needs to be done in French. I think if they haven’t learnt Spanish while they’ve lived in Spain and aren’t going to make a real effort to learn French then it’s not a great idea.

From a paperwork/admin POV I think @niwtdaaam is correct.

AFAIK Brexit generally caused Brits living in the EU to lose freedom of movement across the community...

The internal borders aren't always that closely monitored but upping sticks and moving from Spain to France might ring bells.

Yes, like I’ve said, I’ve voiced my concerns but I’m not pressing the point. They are adults and it’s their lives!

Residency is somewhat irrelevant.

The problem with just leaving them to it is that you know that it will be YOU bailing them out. It will be YOU travelling to France when you're up to your ears with your own life. And it will be YOU trying to deal with different agencies, in French when the inevitable happens. I don't have an answer but you'd be right to be annoyed with their impracticality. I certainly would be.

@Nighttimeistherightime if they have Spanish residency but not citizenship and don’t have EU passports and no other ties to France, I think they will struggle to get the visas , they might get the one you have to keep renewing every year ( forgot its name) but that’s a right old fag at their stage and I certainly wouldn’t be buying property based on that. I think that’s their ‘first’ port of call - you might want to check online and make them aware of it - they may just be ‘presuming’ as they have Spanish PR

This is it, exactly.

It is all very well saying 'they're adults leave them to it'. The reality is that if/when cognitive decline hits for one or both then all those well intentioned 'we can do it' statements go out of the window.

It is hard enough dealing with things in your own language when they are just a couple of towns away. The late night phone calls, the hours in A&E, the bringing in clothes, glasses. Dealing with doctors who dont know medical history.

And a move away from the current familiar situation frequently prompts cognitive decline.

This would be their only home!

my friend moved from the uk to the charante maritime and three years later still duesnt have her residency papers (carte). the Marie staff (mayor) doesnt speak much english and the red tape and hidden costs are unbelievable. you need someone to explain what to do. shes on her second person like this whi is supposed to be an expert snd paid hundreds and the mistakes are shocking but once they have the money even though things aren't going right due to her negligence she wont give you a refund.

you can only drive a car from abroad there for i think it’s a year then you need to take it to a garage to be valued, pay import tax on it and get it registered as french. so that’s a hidden cost. i imagine itll be the same either way anything you bring in. i have to pay tax via their Customs webpage on anything i post her. and if i send via one service, DPD, they charge me £7 for sending me a link. shocking.

in top of that the healthcare is thousands a year. you have to prove you have it. i think she said it was £300 a month.

there are no taxis. the airport only has flights in the summer from london airports.

it’s hard to find tradespeople that speak english. it’s all very expensive.

there are some areas which have termites. you’d need to survey the house to make sure it’s clear as they are bad news.

you also have to pay for a septic tank (fosse) in rural areas. you can only paint your house and shutters certain approved colours.

there are strange inheritance laws there. i’ve heard horror stories of someone buying a house and doimg it up and then a niece and nephew show up and kicj her out because it’s actually their house. but why did the lawyer not know this one asks? because it’s complicated akd thwy didn't pay for one so again another hidden cost, as well as a survey you need to get a property lawyer to check everything is actually legit an the house is theirs to sell to you.

i thought i’d like to retire to thwir to be near my friend. but having seen the expense snd bother, now i would never move to france.

I think just based on your mum's health needs alone that's a bonkers idea. I mean, her health isn't going to get better, is it? If she's got a good doctor in Spain that is worth so much!

@Nighttimeistherightime So they could not afford to return to uk? I think it’s tough love then. Visits when you can manage.

Do they actually have the capacity to sell and buy a new home? Both are stressful, expensive, time consuming processes and would be more so in foreign languages even if you can understand them.
Put bluntly without any input from you do you think they will manage it ?

I like one posters idea of suggesting they try out the area for a holiday. That will give them a bit more of a feel for the place, if it’s off season rentals will be very cheap.

It sounds like this plan will quickly evaporate as soon as they realise they have no legal right to live in France.

Maybe look at more manageable properties near them in Spain?

Yes they have capacity to do this. They’ve moved internationally many, many times and have owned property on many of the moves. I think this is a different situation for them though, as the language difference is a far more significant issue IMO.
I just can’t see how their lives will be improved by this particular move but as I said, I am not pressing the point, I’ve stated my concerns to them but they believe they have a clearer idea than me of what to expect!

Excellent advice @milkandoats

This @Nighttimeistherightime is very important to note. Further, when you do find one, they’re closed 80% of the time along with pharmacies not operating as they do here. France is great but only if you’re in a major metropolitan area with fantastic links, and an abundance of essential services. If you’re in the sticks, you’re screwed.

Will they be entitled to use the French healthcare system (I have no idea). I have (non-elderly) friends who’ve moved to France and are planning residency, and are attending French lessons, mandatory courses, tests etc .

A crazy decision & I have French family. There is a reason so many Brits return in their dotage.

I live in France and one of my sisters lives in Spain. The health service in both countries is a lot better than the UK on average but there are gaps especially in rural France and also France is pretty broke services are unlikely to get better. But the language is a huge issue attitudes towards speaking English (even among those who can) are totally different in France compared to Spain. I did not have much spoken French when we moved here 4+ years ago, but now speak fluently. We live in central Paris and even here you need good French to be able to manage properly unless you pay a lot extra for expat-oriented services/schools/hospitals etc. On the plus side, as long as you do make the effort to learn the language, people are very patient with difficulties and mistakes -- but that doesn't sound relevant in your parents' case.