Really need opinions... US vs UK

[otterbaby]

Hi all, I would really value some unbiased opinions please! It's a bit of a long read but any advice would be most appreciated.

I am originally from California and my husband is from England. I moved here 7 years ago, we've been married for 6 years and we have a 6 month old baby. We have built a life here - own a house, both have decent jobs, cars nearly paid off. However I don't like the area that we live in - high rates of crime, racism, poverty etc. There are some good things about the area but for the most part, I don't feel like it's a very safe place to live and would move in a heartbeat. It's worth noting that my husband was born and raised here, he definitely agrees but has a fondness for the area (obviously!).

It was always the deal that we would move back to California eventually. I am very close with my family back home and that is a big part of my desire to return. My parents are wonderful - unfortunately they haven't had the chance to meet my baby yet, but they are so doting and loving to her. I grew up with a very close relationship to my grandparents and it really shaped who I am as a person. I want her to have that experience as well. She also has an uncle there who I want her to know (my brother). My husband's family is very different - he and his his sister are not on speaking terms (and no chance of reconciliation ever) and his parents have a bit of a toxic relationship. I could write a whole thread on this but to sum it up, he very nearly cut them off entirely about a year ago. I also don't trust them fully with my baby - his mum is a bit aggressive with her (bopping her in the face with toys, shaking her arm/hand very roughly, shouting in her face when crying) so they will never watch her unsupervised. I do know that we could fully trust my parents to watch her on various occasions (date nights and such) and my husband agrees with this.

Moving back does mean starting over in some regards. We would live with my parents for a few months until we found jobs and a place to live. It would also mean renting for a few years until my husband builds up enough credit for us to get on the property ladder - and of course housing prices will be much much higher than they are in our current area. But realistically, within a few years it is very likely that we'll be back to where we are right now in terms of house, cars, jobs etc. My husband is very worried about all of this - he is 35 and is worried about finding a job in his trade. His job is very in demand in California and highly paid. My dad works for the government and ran his CV past a hiring manager who said that he would have no issues whatsoever landing a position with his experience. I do understand his anxiety about it though!

I really feel as though our daughter having a relationship with her grandparents outweighs all of the above concerns. Our other concern is healthcare, but I worked in California prior to moving here and it's not too bad if you find a position with decent insurance (£20 co-pays for appointments and prescriptions). I don't think we'll have another child so that's not a concern either. And holidays - we'll probably get 2-3 weeks and be able to visit many areas in California and surrounding states, but Europe is pretty much out of bounds unless we're going away for a good week or two. But we would be living so close to the beach, San Francisco, Napa, Tahoe, etc. And only a short flight to places like Hawaii, San Diego, etc.

My husband is pretty much 50/50 - and our marriage wouldn't suffer if we decided to move, so please don't factor that into your opinion. He just wants what is best for our daughter. Like I say, I understand his concerns but I also don't know if I'm looking at this with rose-tinted glasses because I want to go back. If we stayed here, we would move but still be in the same area due to our jobs so not much can be done about that.

Please, give me your brutally honest opinions. I'd love to know if I'm really off the mark. We have submitted a visa to go back but it's only the first step and we could be waiting a year or more before we hear back.

Thank you

I live and work in the US and get 4 weeks holiday a year plus an extra 5 personal days. Not everyone gets 2 weeks.

Yes, this is true - particularly if you either work in a well-paid professional job or if you've worked somewhere a long time. MIL worked as a secretary her whole career, but she stayed with the same employer for 25 years and she gradually accrued various benefits - inc. more holiday. I think by the time she left she was up to about 4 weeks, but she only ever took about two of them. You get a decent number of bank holidays in the US too. MLK Day (Jan - not everyone gets this), President's Day (Feb), Good Friday (Mar/Apr), Memorial Day (May), Independence Day (July), Labor Day (Sept), Thanksgiving (Nov) and Christmas Day (Dec).

Having helpful, loving, involved grandparents IS a big draw, I'll admit. My DPs unfortunately live about 100 miles from us here in the UK, so one of the great ironies of our move is that we probably saw more of them when we lived in the US and they came and stayed with us for a week or two at a time!

Are your parents retired?
If not then surely their time with DD would be limited, if so then why can't they have extended holidays with you in the UK?

It sounds like you are living in a 'mixed' area of life neon and comparing that to a MC suburb in US.

You need to try living in a nicer neighborhood in the UK first and try out holidays with your parents to stay first.

Moving has an awful lot of disadvantages.

I would move to CA if grandparents are here. We live here and we are very content, great weather, great schools, bigger home, and there just isn't that drinking culture here which means you never see drunk teens in the park.Personally I feel that kids are a bit more wholesome here for longer. I never hear my kids swear and if they hear us say 'shit' they really react so I think there is just more of a prohibition against that and although that sounds like an odd thing, I appreciate not seeing groups of drinking teens in the local park.
Health insurance is the big one to consider, unless you are a teacher or in the military (who pay all the insurance for you) expect to pay 600-1000 a month on top of your employer's contributions and then 50-100 every time you go to the doctor. Property taxes are also a pain so certainly in the cities where the work is, expect to pay a million for a family home in a good neighborhoood and then you will have 10 K a year in property taxes- that money does go to the schools so we find our local schools are very good but I see it is because we bought in a good neighborhood. I also think uni is more reasonable here if you do the Cal State about 10k a year in tuition which I suppose is the same as the UK.We have a much higher quality of life here than we had in the UK, we save way more money as all salaries are higher so even though there are extra costs everyone gets paid more- teachers and nurses are on 70-100 k in our city so life is just easier. We will not return to the UK now but missing family members is a definite downside, although you do adjust. Now Trump is out that part of life is better too.It is a good life here that we have got used to now.

I can't help but feel like in 20 years when my parents are old, I will regret staying and feel like I've missed out and will never get that time back. I've already been here 7 years and have sacrificed so much - my grandparents weren't able to come to my wedding due to old age and both died while I was away. My mom didn't get to be with me while I gave birth. Birthdays, Christmases, Thanksgiving...I have so many memories of spending those events with my family and grandparents and I don't know if it's fair to deprive my daughter of that just for the sake of 'not having to start over.'

That's the gut feeling to go with, imo.

It takes a village to raise a child, and you don't have that 'village' where you are.

I really sympathise with you. I’ve lived in Aus for 5 years. Have married an Aussie, about to have our first child, bought a house together and I should have full citizenship in a year (currently a permanent resident).

I miss my family every day. I’m very close with them, speak at least weekly on the phone but text daily. I’ve missed out on 3 nephews being born. It was very manageable when I could visit every year but with covid I haven’t been home for almost 2 years now.

My partner has said he’d be willing to move there if I wanted to but realistically it wouldn’t be fair. It’s easier for me to work here. His parents are 10 mins down the road and they’re very close.

Honestly, I would make the move. It’s what’s best for your DD. Close family, California which is such a fantastic place. My niece always disliked having such a small family, especially for holidays when others were having family get togethers.

I've skimmed thread, but I'm from the Bay Area and DH is British. I've been here in the UK 20 years now.
I think you have a better quality of life in the UK Vs CA. More relaxed life, more holidays, better quality of food, shorter working hours, guaranteed health care, less traffic, safer.
When I visit CA now I feel culture shock, so much traffic, pressure to look young, have the right hand bag and car, so superficial. My friends there have beautiful houses and brand new cars, but my goodness they work for them. That's why we decided to stay in the UK mostly. I really miss my family but DH would miss his if we moved. My mum visits for 3 weeks every summer and actually 21 days is probably more than we see my dmil an hour away in the entire year.

Saying all that, in your place I would move back to CA! If you're very close to your family and DH isn't to his, that trumps everything, I think. Do it while your dc is young because it only gets harder to move the longer you wait.

I'm American too, married to a Scottish man and raising children here.

There are a lot of things keeping me and the kids here: the kids' primary school is a good fit for my children and aligned with our values; the balance between work and life is weighted a lot more towards life; gun violence in places like a movie theater or the grocery store isn't something I worry about in my town; accessing health care as an asthmatic and former pregnant lady has been zero hassle and zero stress, and accessing mental health care has been very low cost compared with back home.

But ... my husband has a close and warm relationship with his family, and it's one that they work hard to maintain and improve on every day. During the years when that was a little more iffy (boundary issues to sort out, which luckily have resolved for the most part) ... I really, really wanted to go home and raise my children around the "better" grandparents. Resolution of those issues was really the key that finally made me feel okay with settling here for the long haul -- it would have felt a bit like a prison sentence otherwise, regardless of the other things going for the UK.

I think you guys have three options:

1. Stay where you are, but you remain deeply unhappy and feel detached from your immediate community and any support network outside of your husband. I suspect that won't get better unless your husband and his family can make a huge effort on their part to hash out what they're bothered by and truly work to change for the better going forward.

1. Move closer to your support network in CA, but accept the financial and emotional risks. My folks would let us move into their house in the States in a heartbeat (and then we'd have to deal with our old patterns again, and have our own issues to resolve). But if we ever ran into a situation like this, I feel confident we'd be fine. Eventually. Your intuition telling you things would be temporarily more difficult but eventually work out is probably right. You know your own family: the variable would be whether your husband would be truly comfortable.

1. Stay in the UK, but move to a community more suited to your family. Even if that's hundreds of miles away from your husband's hometown. You and your husband would both be a lot more limited with support at first, but you might be able to build up a new network as you settle in to a new town and make new friends.

I hope you and your husband can talk it out. If he can be honest with you about what unsettles him regarding a move to California, and you can take that on board, I'm sure you two will figure something out. Good luck. X

I'm an American and I've been here in the UK for over 10 years. Admittedly, I have moments just about every month where I think "Boy, it'd be nice to be back in the States living closer to my family" and have a bit of a wallow in the homesickness I feel.

And then I turn on the television to another shooting or race-related outbreak of violence and realise that the grass is not always greener. And it's not just about healthcare. It's uni fees (have you SEEN how much it costs to send a child to college these days in the US???), housing costs, job instability, active shooter drills in schools, etc, etc. America is in a right mess.

Childhood is fleeting. And your family won't always be there (as morbid as that sounds) My son, who has now lived here in the UK since the age of 2.5, is now 13. He has managed to maintain an amazing relationship with my parents, even from a distance. But how the time has flown! A decade has really flown by. I would have kicked myself making another disruptive big move just for a few short years of my child's life.

It's interesting what our perceptions are of countries from the media- I feel grateful we are not raising our son in London when I read about awful stabbings. I have to say that I feel far safer in CA than I ever did in London and as for people being superficial, those people are everywhere. The friends I have made here are interesting people who are not part of that world.I think family swings it to be honest unless you are incredibly happy where you are in the UK. I now don't understand how people get by in the UK, in places like London as the wages just do not match the cost of living. At least in CA most jobs are a lot better paid than in the UK. The guns thing is an issue but CA has very strict gun laws. The Calstate university system is lower cost than the 10k that must be paid in the UK- only the wealthy or the foolish drop 100k plus on getting an education at private universities.

It's uni fees (have you SEEN how much it costs to send a child to college these days in the US???),

Nobody pays the sticker price for US universities. Private universities often offer far better financial aid than state universities, but many state universities have realised they are losing talent to private universities and offer very competitive prices, or free rides.

£15,000 won't go far on cars,insurance and rent. You need to look carefully at the income/capital requirements you need to sponsor your husband. You will need to show three years US pay slips/tax returns to show you have a steady US income. You will also need to prove you yourself are US resident. Go through the visa requirement with a tooth comb and be certain you can both meet all the requirements and cope with the separation while you establish US residency. You should also check all living costs and employment prospects for you both in detail. Remember childcare costs and college savings funds. I've known US expats who moved to UK immediately post college,established themselves in UK with UK spouses and were wholly unrealistic about what it would be like moving back 10 years later. Have you old college friends in the area you want to live with whom you can discuss what it would really be like? Don't underestimate reverse culture shock you ay experience and how much more difficult it is for a middle-aged man with family responsibilities to emigrate and adapt than it is for a young person just out of college. Is there any chance of a sabbatical year to test the waters? Perhaps you could be the breadwinner for a year while your husband takes a college course.

I lived in the US for 10 years and was at uni over there. I know what it is like to live there and in the UK. Both places have their pros and cons, but I don't think that's the issue in your scenario, it's your desire to be at home with your family and your DH's comfort zone. You need to decide which is most important to you as a family.

I had a stay or go dilemma, I came home, for the most it has been the best idea, but I can't say I never pine after my life in the US.

The US is a trash place and I would never move there.

Beyond not having general workers rights, healthcare etc, there have been about 12 mass shootings is tha last week! Its a trash place.

Sounds like moving is the best option, just check that you can really afford to live in a decent area that is near enough to your parents they can help out (ca is expensive) and really afford healthcare - oh and also check visa costs for your husband

Sounds like you need to move area in the Uk anyway, so sit down and do the sums and get on with whichever move you want to make. But it does sound like the Us is the best option for you on the face of it.

It’s a pretty big country. That’s like saying ‘Europe is all crap’.

@MunaZaldrizoti

The US is a trash place and I would never move there.

Beyond not having general workers rights, healthcare etc, there have been about 12 mass shootings is tha last week! Its a trash place.

🤯🙄😂

Ooh - and university costs! - if your family is academic and dd is likely to want to go somewhere prestigious, do factor that in - more expensive in the Us

@partyatthepalace

Aren't mass shooting hilarious. Ya, super funny.

MunaZaldrizoti

Nope - but trashing an entire country because if it’s problems is hilariously stupid.

Well, I mean, people keep shooting and killing others, and yet they won't ban guns like any other normal country. That's trash as far as I am concerned. And it's the entire country's problem. There's racist murders, some done by police. I've been watching the Chauvin trial this week, and lordy only knows, despite people watching him kill, if he is gonna get off.

Voter suppression laws, insurrections, Lauren Boebert, MTG, Gaetz... People not going broke because they have cancer is "communist". God emblazoned on everything and influencing policies and government! Which is very Iranian,

Need anyone really say more?

The UK has a shit ton of problems (we seem to be trying to recreate an empire without understanding that its 2021, not 1821). But the US is in another whole class of insanity.

@MunaZaldrizoti this thread really is no place for you - pretty nasty to come on here when I'm clearly having a difficult time and am looking for genuine advice. Plenty of other US bashing threads on MN, go play there.

Very grateful to those still sending in their POV, it's invaluable and is definitely raising some points that I hadn't considered.

@MunaZaldrizoti

Well, I mean, people keep shooting and killing others, and yet they won't ban guns like any other normal country. That's trash as far as I am concerned. And it's the entire country's problem. There's racist murders, some done by police. I've been watching the Chauvin trial this week, and lordy only knows, despite people watching him kill, if he is gonna get off.

Voter suppression laws, insurrections, Lauren Boebert, MTG, Gaetz... People not going broke because they have cancer is "communist". God emblazoned on everything and influencing policies and government! Which is very Iranian,

Need anyone really say more?

The UK has a shit ton of problems (we seem to be trying to recreate an empire without understanding that its 2021, not 1821). But the US is in another whole class of insanity.

Are you... for real?? 😂

I'd go in a heartbeat

You won't want your child to go to school where you are so you have to move sometime - so make it Cali soon