Really need opinions... US vs UK

[otterbaby]

Hi all, I would really value some unbiased opinions please! It's a bit of a long read but any advice would be most appreciated.

I am originally from California and my husband is from England. I moved here 7 years ago, we've been married for 6 years and we have a 6 month old baby. We have built a life here - own a house, both have decent jobs, cars nearly paid off. However I don't like the area that we live in - high rates of crime, racism, poverty etc. There are some good things about the area but for the most part, I don't feel like it's a very safe place to live and would move in a heartbeat. It's worth noting that my husband was born and raised here, he definitely agrees but has a fondness for the area (obviously!).

It was always the deal that we would move back to California eventually. I am very close with my family back home and that is a big part of my desire to return. My parents are wonderful - unfortunately they haven't had the chance to meet my baby yet, but they are so doting and loving to her. I grew up with a very close relationship to my grandparents and it really shaped who I am as a person. I want her to have that experience as well. She also has an uncle there who I want her to know (my brother). My husband's family is very different - he and his his sister are not on speaking terms (and no chance of reconciliation ever) and his parents have a bit of a toxic relationship. I could write a whole thread on this but to sum it up, he very nearly cut them off entirely about a year ago. I also don't trust them fully with my baby - his mum is a bit aggressive with her (bopping her in the face with toys, shaking her arm/hand very roughly, shouting in her face when crying) so they will never watch her unsupervised. I do know that we could fully trust my parents to watch her on various occasions (date nights and such) and my husband agrees with this.

Moving back does mean starting over in some regards. We would live with my parents for a few months until we found jobs and a place to live. It would also mean renting for a few years until my husband builds up enough credit for us to get on the property ladder - and of course housing prices will be much much higher than they are in our current area. But realistically, within a few years it is very likely that we'll be back to where we are right now in terms of house, cars, jobs etc. My husband is very worried about all of this - he is 35 and is worried about finding a job in his trade. His job is very in demand in California and highly paid. My dad works for the government and ran his CV past a hiring manager who said that he would have no issues whatsoever landing a position with his experience. I do understand his anxiety about it though!

I really feel as though our daughter having a relationship with her grandparents outweighs all of the above concerns. Our other concern is healthcare, but I worked in California prior to moving here and it's not too bad if you find a position with decent insurance (£20 co-pays for appointments and prescriptions). I don't think we'll have another child so that's not a concern either. And holidays - we'll probably get 2-3 weeks and be able to visit many areas in California and surrounding states, but Europe is pretty much out of bounds unless we're going away for a good week or two. But we would be living so close to the beach, San Francisco, Napa, Tahoe, etc. And only a short flight to places like Hawaii, San Diego, etc.

My husband is pretty much 50/50 - and our marriage wouldn't suffer if we decided to move, so please don't factor that into your opinion. He just wants what is best for our daughter. Like I say, I understand his concerns but I also don't know if I'm looking at this with rose-tinted glasses because I want to go back. If we stayed here, we would move but still be in the same area due to our jobs so not much can be done about that.

Please, give me your brutally honest opinions. I'd love to know if I'm really off the mark. We have submitted a visa to go back but it's only the first step and we could be waiting a year or more before we hear back.

Thank you

@otterbaby

Paperwork and visa isn't an issue, thanks though.

Lots of comments about being expensive, healthcare, etc. I guess what it comes down to, do we endure that in order to have close family for our child? The alternative is staying here with only his parents who he keeps at an arms length now anyway...it's just so difficult.

I appreciate you're in a difficult situation, OP -- both of you.

I just think that moving internationally purely to be around one partner's family can often be very chancy and potentially difficult, especially if the other person's heart isn't in the move, and they obviously don't have the same relationship to the family members they're moving to be close to. Also if the person who's dying to move close to their parents has lived in another country for years, they've often not have day to day proximity with them for a long time, and it's not always a smooth readjustment.

As you've seen yourself in relation to your relationship with your PILs, which went from lovely to very sour, family relations don't always remain constant.

Playing devil's advocate because I think it's a useful thing to think about if your parents weren't there, or you didn't have a good relationship with them, or if they decided to move to Iowa a few months after you got there, would you still want to move to California?

@Lucent no, I wouldn't. And that's where the internal struggle starts again! I love California but I'm not ignorant to the fact that for the last 7 years, I have only visited in 'holiday mode' where you're essentially only getting the best bits. But then I think about my daughter basically not having any family to depend on here and it makes me sad for her. And sad for myself - I was devastated when I gave birth 6 months ago and my mother didn't get to be there because of COVID. They'd be missing out on so much.

My parents and brother would literally be the only reason for moving, and I don't know if my desire to move is selfish because I want to be near them, when she might have a better life here. Or does supportive family make a better life? I don't know 🙁 a lot of thinking to be done.

Ignore family and do a pro and con list on quality of life then. Working culture, childcare costs, shopping, leisure activities, education opportunities for your DC, cost of living etc etc. One or the other will stand out and you can tease out what the main issues are for you as a family.
I recently moved home with DH, my sister lives in another country with her DH and my brother is in yet another one with his DW. We all live in places which suit our own family needs and wishes, and we have extended family nearby in all these countries, but didn't move for them. Making a major move just to be near one person's parents well lead to bitterness in the long run.

I'm a Brit who married an American and followed him there. Had three kids in the US and after five years still felt pretty homesick. We were living in Northern California which was beautiful, had friends, good schools for the kids but I couldn't shake the feeling of what our life would be like in the UK. My husband supported the move back to the UK and so I returned to be close to my parents and wider family. At first I could not get used to being back and I regretted it. We've been back nearly three years and my kids do have a great relationship with their grandparents which is what I yearned for but would I do it again? I'm really not sure! If your family could freely visit at the moment do you think you would still feel like this? The pandemic has thrown up all sorts of problems for us because my husband has to travel for work and we are not able to see him as much as we would like right now. We have been talking about moving back to the US if travel restrictions remain this tight. I think in your situation I would probably go while your child is so young. Explore the other option of living in California and if it isn't everything you want then you can always move back. Good luck with whatever you decide 😊

@otterbaby

Thanks for the responses everyone. The visa he would be granted would allow him to work immediately, although he would take a few months off to acclimate once we moved there. We have a pretty decent savings pot (~£15kish) that is basically our rainy day fund if things doing go as swimmingly as we imagine.

Healthcare is probably my number one concern. I sadly had a second trimester loss before our daughter was born and after the trauma of induction & labour, I remember walking out of the hospital thinking how much worse it would be if I had to deal with insurance and paying for the privilege. So that's definitely a factor in the decision still.

@BusyLizzie61 that's a bit of a stretch - just because I chose to relocate doesn't mean I'm not close to my family! After a few years of long-distance dating, we decided that one of us needed to move so I volunteered as I had just finished uni and wanted to experience a new country. And it was on the basis that we would eventually move back. Fair enough that guarantee may be a bit wobbly now that we're settled and have a child, but it is what it is. And it definitely isn't a "my parents are great and yours aren't" thing. Like I say, I won't go into detail about his parents but there are several reasons why their relationship has deteriorated over the past couple of years and that's up to him. Thanks for your input though.

@Lucent he's nervous about starting over from scratch, which I understand. I think he's become more nervous as we've built everything here together, at the time of my moving here he was renting a flat, didn't have a reliable car, etc. So there wasn't as much to lose if you see what I mean. And I actually had a really lovely relationship with his parents for many years, it was some of their actions in recent years that has caused a rift, sadly. And yes, we have discussed that if we were to separate he would be stuck out there. Although if we separated here, I'd be stuck here..! Not things we considered when we chose to start dating!

Lots of good points to consider here, so many thanks!

15k is your cushion. That's hardly a cushion for a move of that magnitude.

I really think that you need to price this all up. If you left as a new graduate, you probably have no real sense of the cost of living and reality of paying for extensive childcare which you'll need once your child is at school, unless you intend being a sahm whilst oh works his socks off for 49 weeks of the year?

I understand why you see the positives. But on paper, away from the emotional heartstring pulling pros, there seems to be a huge risk factor, lack of stability, financial gamble as well as this move makes your oh very vulnerable if you separated. I think that if genuine about the move you need a legal agreement beforehand about where the child will reside in event of relationship breakdown.

@otterbaby
If you're solely relocating for your mum and brother, what about them moving here?

I'd add one thing, and although I'm not a US expert I've come across a few people who, "went home2, except it wasn't home, things had changed, people had moved on, prices had gone up etc etc.

Whether you move to the US or not, you will not be moving back to what you left.

Some places move fast, others slowly

@sashh

I'd add one thing, and although I'm not a US expert I've come across a few people who, "went home2, except it wasn't home, things had changed, people had moved on, prices had gone up etc etc.

Whether you move to the US or not, you will not be moving back to what you left.

Some places move fast, others slowly

Yes, and that's not a US-specific issue. In fact, two family friends of my ILs who had lived in the US for years and had children there, had always planned to return to Ireland. When they did, they lasted only about two years before returning to the US -- the place they had remembered and idealised was not as they remembered it, friends and family had moved away, changed or died, their ideas about prices and life in general were out of date, and they struggled to adjust, and eventually threw in the towel.

This is obviously not the OP's situation as she hasn't lived in the UK for anywhere near as long, and doesn't have to worry about older children adjusting, education etc but it was such a sad situation, I do think of it from time to time, as I knew and liked them, and stayed with them when I first lived in the US. I think what was particularly sad for them was when they returned to the US after what had essentially been an enormously stressful and expensive working holiday, they knew they were there forever after always planning to return 'home', there was now no 'home'.

I grew up moving round after DF work. "Home" was a concept much debated in expat circles and I know loads of people who have gone back to their home country and really struggled with the reality of it. As PP said, time moves on and as my expats friends say, you can never go "home".

Wherever you go - it needs to be 100%! So - why not get a piece of paper and do the whole pros/cons things and make a decision?

It’s tough when you move and you do get homesick over the years. My sister got that stage and felt she couldn’t come home because she has grown up kids there and a husband. She does get very homesick and regrets emigrating. I’m homesick too. Luckily it’s only a few hours ago and I do have a sibling still there - but lots of ‘what ifs’?

Crime rates - I’d be surprised if they were lower and it’s quite a wokey-wokey state (my sister is one over and used to live in SF) and that does cause social issues and problems.

I live in Australia but my husband is English, as are lots of our friends. It’s a generalisation but the couples that have ended up moving back to the UK are the ones where only the woman is from there. If they are both away from home they make it work and the guys from the UK who are married to Australians seem happy here.

Many of the couples that move back (it’s always to be closer to grandparents for childcare etc) end up back here again after they realise that living there is not the same as holidays. GP that drop everything to be with their GK during holidays may still have a life of their own to lead when the GK are around all the time.

I think there are aspects of American life and culture that you will accept because they are normal to you, but your husband will find them batshit crazy. If you decide to make the move, keep an open mind. My brother and SIL moved to the US (where she is from) and she could never see his point of view about anything because in her mind the US was superior on every level. They are now divorced.

All those pointing out the (only partly understood) deficiencies of American life need to remember that the OP is American and presumably knows the ropes.

She is presumably familiar with the advantages too, including the excellent state university system in California, the wonderful opportunities for extracurricular activities in state schools, the lifestyle California offers - skiing, hiking, beaches - you name it, California has it.

I would definitely go. It is very, very hard to be too far from your parents and family when you have a child, and you have nobody you can rely on in the UK.

I think you need to work on your DH.

WRT crime rates - crime has a different nature in the US.

There is far more low level crime in the UK, much more antisocial behaviour, vandalism, graffiti, and petty crime that affects your day to day decisions and habits. It provokes anxiety and it can be very oppressive.

In the US the average middle class family will be able to leave children's toys out on the front lawn overnight, you might leave your doors unlocked overnight, you can enjoy local parks and facilities without having to keep an eye peeled for a gang of youths up to no good, police tend to be responsive and take complaints seriously if you do experience a crime.

Yes, there are areas where none of the above holds true, but neighbourhoods where shootings are a daily occurrence and shops have metal shutters protecting them at night ( you do not see these in middle class areas) are isolated and easy to steer clear of.

@mathanxiety yes, that's exactly it. Our area has a lot of antisocial behaviour and I didn't experience anything like it for the 23 years I lived back home...yes, there is plenty of crime but like you say, it's much easier to just stay out of those neighbourhoods especially if you don't have any reason for going there.

Everything on paper says to stay but I can't help but feel like in 20 years when my parents are old, I will regret staying and feel like I've missed out and will never get that time back. I've already been here 7 years and have sacrificed so much - my grandparents weren't able to come to my wedding due to old age and both died while I was away. My mom didn't get to be with me while I gave birth. Birthdays, Christmases, Thanksgiving...I have so many memories of spending those events with my family and grandparents and I don't know if it's fair to deprive my daughter of that just for the sake of 'not having to start over.'

Ughhhhh!!!

We were in the exact opposite situation to you OP. I'm British, DH is American and we moved to the US after meeting and ended up marrying there and having our first DC there. It was always our intention to return to the UK and DH was as keen as me to do that, but after six years living there it wasn't the easy decision we thought it would be and we dithered a fair bit before making up our minds to return to the UK. Having made that decision we are both 100% happy with it and have now been back over a decade.
The things that swung it for us were:

• my family, which is much bigger and more involved than his family and offered cousins for our DC, whereas his didn't;
• Europe on our doorstep! We love to travel and missed easy access to the continent;
• we prefer the UK education system and wanted to move before DS1 started school;
• house prices were about the same in either location (we lived near NYC and returned to London area);
• career opportunities/salaries were equivalent too;
• we hated the weather in that area of the US - bitterly cold winters and stinking hot, humid summers - neither conducive to large amounts of pleasant time spent outside. I'm guessing the opposite of this may be true for you considering CA vs. UK;
• this one is going to sound odd, but we both love the history/old buildings you find in Europe and we missed them and didn't find the architecture of most of NJ to be anywhere near equivalent!

I’m currently living in Massachusetts and love it here for the travel/environment, great to be able to drive a couple of hours and be in a totally different, beautiful place. Great skiing in the winters and lake swimming in the summer. But $15k is no cushion at all. That would be eaten up in 2 months. Seriously. The gap between rich and poor in California is stark. Yes it would be a great place to live and raise children but you will need a minimum of 200k pa salary for an ok life. The US is expensive in just basic items - food, broadband, electricity

I would move to be closer to your family now.

I moved to the US 10 years ago when my children were small because of DH's job and also because the healthcare and overall support for my DS was better (rare incurable disease).

It's much harder to move as your children get older, although obviously not impossible.

I live on the East Coast and enjoy living here but I do miss my family and particularly as I age and my parents and siblings age I would love to be closer to them.

@mathanxiety

All those pointing out the (only partly understood) deficiencies of American life need to remember that the OP is American and presumably knows the ropes.

She is presumably familiar with the advantages too, including the excellent state university system in California, the wonderful opportunities for extracurricular activities in state schools, the lifestyle California offers - skiing, hiking, beaches - you name it, California has it.

I would definitely go. It is very, very hard to be too far from your parents and family when you have a child, and you have nobody you can rely on in the UK.

I think you need to work on your DH.

Yes, she knows them, of course, but what to her may be the self-evident advantages of life in California over wherever they are in the UK may not seem so to her DH. I lived for a few years in several different parts of the US before deciding I had been offered a generous scholarship to an Ivy League school for a PhD and had to say yes or no that, regardless of its advantages, I simply didn't like living in the US enough to want to commit to a future there.

I moved to the UK instead (am not from there), and although objectively I was far worse off in material terms, it was a decision I never regretted. These decisions are not necessarily made on crime rates and salaries and proximity to ski slopes.

What I'm saying is that pros and cons lists only go so far. It's one of the genuine difficulties of being a mixed-nationality couple. I have a friend from somewhere just outside Minneapolis who's married to a Parisian and raising their two children in Paris, and despite a glamorous job, fluent French and being very well-integrated, she's sorry she's not living in the US, and it's strained their marriage -- despite the fact that, objectively, Paris is fabulous compared to where she's from. They've considered moving to a country where they're both foreigners, but neither wants to start over with teenage children just because it would be a situation where neither of them was at home.

The ridiculous holiday allowance alone is the reason I'd never move to the States. 2-3 weeks is simply not enough free time.

@Level75

The ridiculous holiday allowance alone is the reason I'd never move to the States. 2-3 weeks is simply not enough free time.

Yes, that was on our list too actually. The OP may accept that paltry 2-3 weeks as normal, but I'm willing to bet her British DH will hate it after a year or two. In the area of business I worked, the culture was to NOT TAKE all your holiday entitlement too, which I found incredibly toxic, bad for mental health and bad for productivity - we all need to switch off. I worked with a guy who got married and took his first ever 2-week holiday for his honeymoon. When he returned to the office he made a beeline for my desk and slapped the partition saying 'You Europeans have the right idea - I never realised that it isn't until the second week that you really switch off'. Indeed.

I live and work in the US and get 4 weeks holiday a year plus an extra 5 personal days. Not everyone gets 2 weeks.

There seems to be a huge anti-US sentiment in some of the posts. Gun crime is scary and random, healthcare costs can be very high, cost of living varies (like the UK), the UK also has its own set of issues.

No place is perfect. I'm in the US for the healthcare because the UK can't provide the support my son needs. I am not in a well paid job and I have an ok quality of life.

There are many places to live in California, it seems to me the OP would like to be near her family whilst her child and possibly future children are young.

I won't hear a word against Minneapolis. It's a very nice place to live, and if you're going to bring up George Floyd, I can point to plenty of issues in Paris.

It makes a huge difference to the person doing the majority of the parenting if your parents are close at hand. If you're on your own - unable to get the emotional and practical support you really need - it makes the journey of motherhood incredibly hard.

Healthcare is a MASSIVE issue. For me it would be a deal breaker. If you lose your job or become too ill to work you’re screwed. And losing holidays is a deal breaker too - nobody ever lay on their death bed and wished they had worked more.

I am from Asia but lived in the UK for quite a few years, and moved to the US for grad school and stayed when I married my American husband (whom I met in the UK). He’s a Midwesterner but we now live on the East Coast (having spent a few childfree years in California for his residency). We love it. And we would live in California in a heartbeat (and we’ll probably move in a year or two before our oldest hits middle school). We spend quite a lot of time in London but even on holiday mode in London we largely prefer our American lifestyle.

DH’s parents moved from the Midwest to be close to us. They are lovely (MIL is lovely but mad but I really like her). My mother is dead and my dad still lives in my home country (which we visit every year- DH’s parents are also from there so we don’t have a language issue). Having parents around makes such a big difference in the long summer holidays. I hate sending them to camp every day. I think summer should be for playing and lying on a couch and reading and having the grandparents around allows us to do a bit of that.