Moving to France - school age children who don't speak French

[Mrsmoo28]

So, we're getting disillusioned with life in the UK. You've heard it before, I guess . We're worried about loss of family values, cost of further education, house prices etc etc.
We've sold our house and can't find an alternative after looking++. We could afford to rent / buy a good property in France and we could afford not not work for a year or so or could return home to contract to bring money in whilst we learnt the language / established longer term plans. We have 2 children 7 and 6 who are settled at an outstanding primary and are very bright.
DH and I speak minimal French but are willing to learn. We'd be thinking of putting the children in a French school.
We have had an itch pre and post children but don't want to scratch it to the detriment of our little people.
Thoughts please?
Positives and negatives, realities and correct/incorrect stereotypes welcome.
Thanks

The utter naivety is your post really woukd indicate that moving countries is not for you.

I know people who’ve literally just done this. They’re giving it a year initially but clearly very excited and happy with their choice

Your kids are at the age where they would pick up French in no time.

Especially going to a local school.

I did it at that age.

Carib, can you explain what you mean by your post? Might help the OP, rather than making a one line statement.

My friend did similar with her kids aged 5 and 7 but to Italian speaking Switzerland. 6 months in the kids are fluent already, she is struggling a bit more with the language so I’d worry more about you than them. The school culture is different - at least where she is it is. School starts later and they will be covering stuff they have already done at school so they won’t be behind at all. Also the playground is less helicopter parenting and so your kids might need to tough it out a bit. I am considering similar to Canada but for different reasons, I have no idea what ‘family values’ are but have no truck with nostalgic revisionist views of England. Anyway, I think if you are up for the adventure why not? What’s the worst that can happen?

Look up belair clamping in dordoign. My friend did this a few years ago and is loving life. Definitely a good move.

Hi,

I would strongly caution against selling up and moving all your assets to France. A quick look at any expat forum will show you that there are many who have sold up and moved for the dream and are now stuck there with little hope of being able to afford to move back.

If at all possible I would advise you to buy a smaller house which you rent out in the UK which will still give you something to move back to if/when you want to come home.

You could rent for a year or two to scratch the itch and see if it works for you, but you need to do your homework and take off your rose-tinted specs.

Your children are still young enough to be able to adapt well, however I would get them some lessons before you leave to make things easier.

Be aware that the French education system is very traditional compared to the UK with more emphasis on rote learning, less on drama, art and self-expression in general and SEN provision is far behind although things are changing.

If you're going to do it, I would do it sooner rather than later, and definitely before your children are secondary age.

Have you factored in how Brexit will affect your plans?

Be ready for a lot of heart ache and rough patches - emigrating to a country where you don't already speak the language fluently and understand the culture instinctively is a rollercoaster of extreme highs and lows. It takes 5-7 years to feel properly settled and at home, rather than euphoric/ determined/ furious/ desperate/ hopeful/ euphoric/ determined and so on.

People saying children will be fluent in 6 months are using "fluent" extremely loosely or remembering something through rose tinted nostalgia glasses or don't speak the language well enough themselves to judge honestly and lapping up encouraging comments from well meaning strangers who heard their child talk in a familiar context for a couple of minutes, or know an atypical child... Children are very rarely indistinguishable from native speakers a year after moving at school age. 3 years, maybe, but I know English kids born in Germany to English parents and sent to local schools whose family only socialise with expats and so are only immersed at school, who don't genuinely speak fluent German by age 7, 8, 9 or older.

You’ll have to be Resident in France for tax purposes in order to get things like schooling and health care. That will tax o your worldwide assets, income, property etc. If you then plan to come back to the UK to do contract work you’ll be eligible to pay UK income tax too.

Meant to add.....French tax rates are high so you’d have to make sure you could cover paying tax in both countries unless you could move your business to France of course.

I think moving wholesale to a country where you don't speak the language is bad idea. When you're young, free and single with no ties, yes, but not later in life. Or not unless you are loaded and can keep a base in the UK in case you hate it.

Thank you. I recognise it's a bit of a rose tinted idea and I'm aware of the high taxes. We'd not considered the double taxes so might have to consider that.
I think our main concern was it being detrimental for the children in terms of development / stability in the short term
Any positives?

Positives? Yes, Travel, living abroad and learning other languages are always positive imo! Especially for children, one of the very best ways to educate them if you have the opportunity.

mrsmoo the biggest positive is that if you stay permanently and out in the hard work if integrating fully and supporting your children on their own emotional rollercoaster, you'll have bilingual, bicultural children eventually which is an incredible advantage.

You have to be in it for the long haul and willing to work to avoid becoming your own mini expat integrated ghetto, take the deep, dark, depressing, lonely, frustrating, infuriating, self loathing, second guessing lows with the incredible highs and moments of accomplishment, bliss, and deep contentment for years, before you achieve the stable mundanity of just being home in your adopted country with your incredible bilingual, bicultural children.

It's not the easy option, especially when neither of you parents speak fluent French to start with.

How will you deal with bureaucracy especially in writing, without a French speaker?

Why not try somewhere else in the UK?

Moray?

Highland Perthshire?

Western Isles?

The kids will adjust and will be fluent in no time. Beware the French education system is very old fashioned, lots of rote learning, strict and big class sizes. Most expats really dislike it.

There is no double taxation between France and the UK, you will pay tax in one or the other place. Taxes and social contribution are high in France.

It depends on the kids if they are outgoing and could deal socially with being the weird kid who doesn't speak for a while they'll be ok. If they are shy and would be badly affected don't do it. Learning a second language will be amazing for them in terms of lifestyle obviously but they'd probably have to repeat a year in school.

You can’t speak French. And you’re moving to France.

It will be an adventure. So many many people can’t and won’t do things they live such dull lives. If you don’t like it you can come back but it would be a shame to miss out on such an exciting opportunity for you and your children.
They could possibly learn a new language, learn social skills if they start a new school, experience a different culture and make some memories.
I would do it in a heartbeat!

Your kids will learn French in year assuming you put them in a local school with no other English speakers.

You won't though, unless you are extraordinarily determined and already have decent school French (A level standard). I have lived in for 20 years and in that time I would estimate that no more than 1% of the British people I have met here speak fluent French. The fluent French speakers are almost always married to French speakers, or came to France for work.

Commuting to do contract jobs is not a sustainable way of life, particularly if Brexit goes badly. You need a rethink ... You need a local income, so that you are in the system - this could be a self-employed contract with a UK employer but you must have a business registered in France, because ahead of Brexit you need to get your "sécu" rights established.

Sorry I think it’s a terrible idea if you don’t speak French and the French education system as others have said is v traditional. There’s no way I’d forgoe a British school for a French one for my DC.
Speaking as someone who has lived in France before. I think you are very naive and would disrupt your children for nothing. Buy a small holiday home and spend summers in France soaking up the language and the culture. Then go home and make the best of life in a country that still has so much to offer.

it depends on your kids but of course it will be to the detriment of your kids in the short term. how can it not? plucked out of their happy little lives and moved to a country where they dont speak the language and expected to go to a school and make new friends who they dont share a language with.
i think you are a little mad if your first priority genuinely is your dc. we moved within the uk last year a few hundred miles with a 9 year old. lots of effort into after school clubs and school and she is happy now but still misses her old life.

I think it depends on how long you plan to go for tbh.

If you are only planning 1 year then for your children in French school the negatives will outweigh the positives.

My dd was 6 when we moved to France, like pp have said fluency is an subjective concept and to be truly fluent takes years and a lot of hard work. She is 12 now and in some regards fluent in French, she went straight into the French system and is extremely comfortable in French but it has been a hard slog for her. Her French soon outstripped mine and she needed a tutor (every 7 year olds dream to do a full day at school then come home and start again ).

For the first year she barely spoke at school. French schools are different to English, they sit at their desk and follow instructions. Lunch is not part of the school day so your child either comes home or you pay for periscolaire (wrap around). Dd came home in her first year but her French suffered as 2 x 15 minutes play time a day at school was not enough to get her French going. 2nd year we payed for periscolaire and she improved much more.

French grammar is complex and she still makes mistakes, normal but other kids with French parents get this corrected at home dd doesn't and so it's noticed at school. Her vocab is not as wide as that of a native either.

That said, we dont regret anything, she is doing extremely well and she is very happy. We have had a wonderful adventure and the good far outweighs the bad. But if we had only come for 1 year dd would have had a very difficult year with no long term benefit.

As for the other stuff, yes it can be tough dealing with stuff in France if your language skills are not great but I have found most people to be extremely patient and helpful (Orange, health system and edf even have English speaking helplines) We have a double tax agreement so although you will need to do 2 tax returns you don't pay tax twice. French taxes are all online, you will need a French speaker to guide you the first time but after that it's much easier.

As for the pp who says that English forums are full of people stuck and can't move back, I cannot comment on that forum but mine is full of Brits terrified they will be forced to move back thanks to Brexit and looking to get French citizenship.

We have found french life much more laid back, family orientated and welcoming (my village even has a little festival each year where we celebrate our multicultural community). Good luck with whatever you decide op.

People saying children will be fluent in 6 months are using "fluent" extremely loosely

This. I have lived and taught in schools in France and Belgium as well as teaching in schools with high numbers of EAL in UK. This myth that children are fluent in no time really makes me cross. It actually takes around 7 years to reach full fluency in spoken and written language. A child may be able to hold conversation in a second language but that's not the same thing and there will be an impact on their academic work as their writing will need to catch up.

Don't underestimate the effort needed to learn a language yourself either. I've seen so many people arrive with the best of intentions to master the local language but very few do. If you're serious then invest lots into learning the language now.

And consider Scotland as another cheap alternative as a PP suggested.

Or put your kids in an international school.

Time to fluency depends on the child, but kids who join French primary education at 6 should not be seriously disadvantaged - except insofar as they are disadvantaged by having non-French speaking parents who can't help with homework or navigate the complex French secondary and higher education system.

If the OPs kids were secondary age it would be more of a concern. But tbh the OP has this backwards - the kids will learn French quickly, for the adults it will be a far longer and more difficult process.