Moving to France - school age children who don't speak French

[Mrsmoo28]

So, we're getting disillusioned with life in the UK. You've heard it before, I guess . We're worried about loss of family values, cost of further education, house prices etc etc.
We've sold our house and can't find an alternative after looking++. We could afford to rent / buy a good property in France and we could afford not not work for a year or so or could return home to contract to bring money in whilst we learnt the language / established longer term plans. We have 2 children 7 and 6 who are settled at an outstanding primary and are very bright.
DH and I speak minimal French but are willing to learn. We'd be thinking of putting the children in a French school.
We have had an itch pre and post children but don't want to scratch it to the detriment of our little people.
Thoughts please?
Positives and negatives, realities and correct/incorrect stereotypes welcome.
Thanks

Agree with Mistigri. Your DC will have few problems but you will if you don't speak French. When we moved to France my youngest was 6 and she still took about 6 months to start speaking a bit. This is totally normal and the "fluent in 3 or 6 months" claims are daft and I have never witnessed it. Although DH is bilingual he was never around so it was left to me to deal with the endless bureaucracy and meetings and forms and homework and at that stage I understood okish but was basically otherwise rubbish. In English terms I was considered a good French speaker but in the reality of living in France I was not!

To say it was hard is an understatement. I spent a lot of our first year in tears. And I had a lot of local support. Do not underestimate how difficult it is to live somewhere that you do not speak the language.

That is just the language side of things, then there is the problem of finding work and if you work in the UK and reside in France for more than 6 months of the year, they will tax you on your UK income.

Does it have to be France? Places like Dubai, Bahrain or Abu Dhabi are considered “expat lite” in my circles.
I know people who moved from uk to France and the ME as France was just too difficult to live in. And they both had pretty good French (still speak it to the kids)

I also think it depends where you live as to how quickly you settle in and find friends. We live in an area of no expats so whilst my DC were treated as minor celebrities when we lived in the countryside, I was ignored. My MIL has lived there for 30 years and has no friends except FIL's acquaintances through his hobbies/work. If you live somewhere that has lots of expats (Charente etc) you will be in a better position socially but work-wise it will be dire.

I don’t want to derail and I suppose Romance languages are different, but I’m a bit bewildered by people saying that it takes 6yos at least a couple of years to pick up a new language to the level of their native-speaking peers. Quite a few times I’ve seen children of that age come to our school with no words in the local language whatsoever, within a few months they’re comfortable and after a year indistinguishable from those who were born here. I don’t doubt the expertise and experiences of those who say otherwise, but my experience has very much been ‘oh the kids will pick it up in no time’.

We (UK parents) lived in Germany for 4 years. H worked at a company where business was done in English. My German was basic.
Ds1 was conversationally fluent (local accent apparently) after 12 months. He was a very late speaker in English too so I think that an average child could be conversationally fluent sooner. At home we spoke English and he watched kids TV in German. He claims to have understood the dialogue much earlier than 12 months but there are visual cues in cartoons which might make it easy to guess anyway.
When I left Germany my understanding had improved but I hadn't taken the time to learn the grammar so while I could make myself understood in basic conversation, gramatically I was all over the place. I lived in a town which had evening classes for foreigners who wanted to learn. I'm not sure if rural areas would have that sort of service.

I suspect the comment about being naive is with regards to Brexit. I know that the UK is allowing EU Nationals to stay if they have the right paperwork but I don't recall hearing if UK expats can stay in the EU? Brexit apparently happens March 2019 so it's a gamble.

Takeaway are you making that observation as a class teacher or just as a school gate parent?

Lots of people are telling you about the negatives, but I wanted to give you a positive story.
We decided to move to Catalonia (on the day of Brexit actually haha) and it's been the best decision we EVER made. We are self-employed and our careers are online based so that has never been a problem. Although we were on decent wages and had a good life in the UK, my quality of life in Spain is UNREAL. I am so happy and relaxed ALL THE TIME. I love it. It's like being on holiday and I love working from home here. I will never move back to the UK and when I do visit I always think about how grim it is, how low-rent people are and how glad I am to have kids in school here where life is more wholesome. I know I sound like a snob, don't @ me. OP you will love it. First few months of paperwork will be nightmare, but find an accountant and someone who can translate and go to meetings and appts with you, and it will be much smoother. Expect HMRC to not be helpful at all!!

Also adopting the local accent isn't related to fluency, it would be near impossible for a young child learning by immersion rather than classes to produce the local language in anything but the local accent even if they'd only picked up a few phrases.

Dc3 (bilingual English German, born in Germany to one English and one German parent) became inseparable from a little Rumanian girl who moved to our village when he was 2.5. She only spoke Rumanian, and after a while he started echoing her and babbling instead of talking to her in German. Her grandfather visited after 6 months and was astounded that dc3 spike Rumanian. Except he didn't, he'd just mastered the 10 or so things his friend said most often and was using them. Apparently his accent was native. That's because he was echoing though, not trying to use an accent as older children do. He couldn't have had an actual conversation in Rumanian despite his native Rumanian accent.

His friend speaks good but nowhere near perfect German now, 4 years on, and is going through the boys are horrible phrase so they no longer play together, and DS3 has no memory of his Rumanian phrases and doesn't remember using them.

Oh and join some evening classes where you can learn French, make as many friends and possible and talk to everyone out and about even if you're not in the mood. It will help you pick it up faster. Watch tv, listen to radio etc all in French and get it in your head.

Lots of people saying it's too hard to learn, but I learnt both Spanish and Catalan (yes they are different languages and as different and French and Spanish are) and became advanced/fluent in 1 year.

@catinasplashofsunshine Boggled by your spelling of 'Rumanian' - you mean Romanian, right?

Spanish British people are low "low rent" and you think you became fluent in two languages within one year as an adult? I'd rather mistype a letter than live inside your head!

Hmm really interesting debate here. I moved to Italy when I was 20 and within a year I was dreaming in Italian, thinking in Italian and forgetting English words on the phone to my parents. I had studied it at uni for 2 years, but from the access level but I do think it all depends on the person and half of the trick is to start to think like an Italian/French person rather than an English person speaking a foreign language. Native speakers make grammatical/malaprop mistakes all the time. I think it depends on the person. If you can hum a tune when you hear it that is a good indication of whether you have a good ear.

English people do overstate the difficulty of foreign languages imo. My Mil never even finished school and she speaks French, English, Arabic and Turkish.

Seems to be confusion between bilingual and fluent on this thread.

OP my biggest concern would be healthcare.
Have you looked into whether you would be able to access the French social security system during your 'year out'?

Swimming that's great for your mil but she probably learnt at least two of those languages from birth I'd guess, and certainly not several at once from scratch to fluency in one year.

Learning languages to genuine written and spoken fluency takes years. Of course it's doable and not related to academic status, but it takes years.

@catinasplashofsunshine it takes years to perfect maybe, but if you are dedicated, study it and practice it constantly, it's definitely possible. I'm not making up that I learnt 2 languages that quickly, but I was very committed to it, and practically gave up speaking English whilst doing so (apart from on phone to parents). I spoke them with my partner 24/7 and within a year, could have any conversation with any person, no problem.

@rainingcatsanddog The Brexit thing is a gamble, but I would say that people earning a wage, paying into the system and living 'by the book' so to say, won't be turfed out because of Brexit. It just wouldn't make sense to have that loss in the economy - on both sides.

of all our friends who have done this, the ones in Spain seem to have had a better time of it and none of them have come back!

2 people here moved to France but came back and now live some of their time here and some there

but it may just be a coincidence!

I would be very worried about neither of you (dh and you) speaking any French

If you are doing it because if Brexit but you won't be EU citizens, will you be storing up more administrative trouble for yourself?

I'd say fluent is able to speak and write a language easily, quickly, in a flowing manner, with correct sentence structure and on any age and life stage appropriate subject. A very good C1/ 2 boarderline for an adult.

Native speaker proficiency is different of course. Fluent doesn't mean able to get by in familiar situations though, which is how the "school age kids' will pick it up on their own and be fluent in 6 months" thinkers use it.

Stray apostrophe for Spanish to be "boggled" by in there...

We've done it in Germany. D'S was 5 when we moved. Been here nearly 5 years now and the benefits to him have been enormous. More freedom, bilingualism and an expanded view of the world. Yes, there are downsides, but we love it and you can always move back if you don't.

I would not think too much about Brexit except to plan to do it this side of march. If you end up needing to leave after Brexit then at least you've had the experience! Why not?

We had no money when we moved BTW. We had the deposit for a flat and DH had a work contract. That was it. If we did it surely you can with assets.

Swimminguphill it's hardly a comparison if you've done two years of grammar and vocabulary at uni before going there - that's much more grounding than someone going in blind (and much more sensible). I also went to live in Italy at 20. I pick up languages very easily, but was far from fluent after a year. I studied a degree in languages later on.

I never understand why people that decide to go and live in France or other foreign countries don't do any preparation before they go. Learn the language, teach your children the language. You would intergrate far easier and so would the children - it would be easier for them at school and to make friends. A friend of mine moved to France last year with no grasp of the language. They're just hanging around with other ex pats and not earning enough without returning to the uk every now and again. Otherwise they're living on their equity from here and will be in a mess in 10 yrs time.

Where in France?

Also if you do some research on French politics and the reality of it all (in terms of 'family values' etc) it might be a good idea. I lived out there for 5 years, came back several years ago (as have probably 19 out of the 20 or so expat families we knew out there - it just didn't work for so many different reasons, not least of which was their English kids struggling with the lifestyle and bullying, total lack of support for kids with additional needs, all this despite some having been out there a very long time or done almost their entire education there - also then struggling back in the UK as there was a lot catching up to do even for the most academic kids).

Also Xenophobia is rife outside the big cities or even in the poorer suburbs and definitely in the more rural areas, obviously there are exceptions, I experienced a lot of examples of a closed culture in terms of accepting foreigners. Also socially it can be hard to adapt as on the whole the French are very formal, I found very few French friends who were as relaxed or open as I am used to. Add in high taxes, random additional taxes, possibly having to pay for healthcare etc, the unknown impact of Brexit (what will happen with education/further education/British pensions stopping being paid abroad or frozen?), the ridiculous cost of buying a house (in terms of fees etc) and the fact that once you've bought it the housing market is dead in the water. I wouldn't do it again if you paid me! Also more than half the couples we knew ended up divorced from the stress and isolation and the pressure it puts on your relationship, I'm amazed we made it though TBH.

As a positive though I wouldn't worry too much about the kids and language - they'd be alright within a year or so (a bit upsetting at first to be in an environment where you understand nothing and have no friends, but most kids adapt quite quickly and we met some lovely, kind and inclusive kids who were a great help, especially as they are still really young).