how long did it take your children to settle into school and learn the langage?

[indiajane]

Hi!

We moved to Austria in January and planned to stay here till September. Our two school aged children have been going to school here. They have an extra german lesson every day and the first 6 weeks went ok, but now the eldest (age 8) is very tearful and begging on an hourly basis to go home. The other (age 6) is not begging to go home but has to be prised into school each day.

They spoke no german at all before they came here - and don't appear to be picking it up at all. The headmaster has already taken dh aside and expressed concerns that ds1 is isolating herself from other children and has given up trying to communicate .

I'm not sure whether to abandon the experiment and go back to the UK. I think the oportunity to learn another langage for the girls at this age is a great one but I don't want to make them so unhappy.

Can anyone tell me if there is light at the end of the tunnel or if 9 months isn't long enough to learn the language and therefore not worth staying on for?

We lived in France for a year when DS was 4. He attended an ecole maternelle which is a bit like pre-school. There were 2 other english children in his class who had moved there permanently. At the end of the school year, DS wasn't speaking much French, but had very good comprehension. The 2 other children were almost fluent. The teacher thought the difference between my DS and the others was that he knew he was not staying in France, and therefore had less incentive to learn the language.
We have agonised over whether we did the right thing sending him to school there, as it was hard for him but we were keen for him to have the opportunity to learn a second language.
It is almost 3 years now since we got back. Although he can't remember much French, he is very, very interested in France and seems to be quite pleased he attended school there. I think it was the right decision for him to go to school for the year.

Is there any chance your children could just go to school for the morning session as it must be very tiring to be immersed in another language for the whole day? They may feel better able to cope with it then.

It is such a difficult decision to make as you want to your children to have the best opportunities, but also want them to be happy.

Indiajane, I know a family who moved to Spain about 7 months ago and the dd is struggling at school (she is 10, maybe 11 now)

The mother is Spanish and the father is fluent in the language so both children could already speak Spanish very well. However, neither of the children had ever had to write in Spanish or speak it all day long - that combined with the move to a different country has affected the dd far more than her brother (he is 6).

Sorry, I don't really have an answer for you but I would say going by the above example that 9 months is probably not long for someone to learn a new language.

Do you and your dh speak German?

DH is fluent in German as he spent several years there but I don't speak a word of it (literally) so am finding it quite hard myself.

Mimizan, the schools start here at 7.55 and finish at 11.40! - they have 3 breaks in that time too!! What I arranged is for the girls to have an hours German lesson afterwards too which means they have a teacher to themselves for that time - but to be honest we could give them German lessons in England.

Very interesting what you say about the incentive to learn the language - perhaps they've just given up and are waiting to go home They are so cross all the time at home though - their behaviour is really deteriorating and I'm not keen on telling them off too much as they're already having such a hard time.

It sounds like a difficult situation Indiajane. I really feel for you. I think it helped my son to have the other English children to play with as he could communicate normally with them. Is there anyway you could try and meet some english-speaking children of your children's ages? It must be difficult being the 'new' children and then seeming 'odder' as they can't communicate. Perhaps if you could find some other English children they could spend each afternoon with them?
Remember they have had a lot of changes with moving, leaving friends and family and this is bound to affect their behaviour. But also remember that you are offering them an amazing opportunity which in years to come they will thank you for.

Yes, I've been on the lookout for any other English kids - I know there is an American at the school but both his parents speak German fluently and so does he. I've asked DD1 if she'd like to play with him but sadly, at 8 he doesn't really want to play with her (I think he's afraid the other kids would laugh at him and say he's got a "girlfriend")

Thanks for your help though - it's good to know you think this is a good oportunity for them - rather than I'm being mean/mad/uncaring to "do" this to them - as they keep telling me!

It is heart breaking isn't it when things go haywire like this. It did sound like a good plan but doesn't seem to be going well.

If you are only planning on staying until September, personally I wouldn't see the point in making them suffer just to immerse them in German. What would worry me is how their personalities might change if they are really very unhappy at school. They may develop anxieties/interaction problems/learning problems which you will have trouble sorting out later IYSWIM.

If you are in a biggish place, maybe there is an international school they could attend with classes held in English. They might enjoy the Austrian experience more if they are say learning German via sports clubs and that kind of thing with an hour's tuition at home each day.

Do you have English language schools near you at all?

When my dd started German school last August she was 6 but had already spent 4 years in a German kindergarten so the language wasn't a problem.

In her class there's a French boy whose dp are here for a couple of years and he seems to be coping fine. Mind you year 1 is not so demanding, is it? I can imagine your 8 year old is feeling very frustrated. The year 1s are really only learning basic addition and subtraction as well as learning to read so that isn't such a huge change. I think this boy had already learnt to read in French too which helps of course. He's been in school for 8 months now and he can speak a bit of German but he is by no means fluent yet. He does have friends (including dd) and seems well integrated in the class. Perhaps what made your youngest struggle was entering the class late after everyone had made friends. Otherwise I should have thought she'd manage pretty much the way the French boy is managing in dd's class.

Can you help by inviting class mates over and things like that? I should have thought too that the 8 year olds are beginning to learn English at school in Austria so your eldest should be interesting for the other kids solely because of the language.

Hi Indiajane

Whereabouts in Austria are you? I'm in Vienna, in the 19th district is that anywhere near you?

I have 2 DDs, the eldest attends a bi-lingual (English/German) school and is doing fine but we've been here for nearly 7 years and so learnt the German alongside the English. She is 8, my youngest is 4 and is at Kindergarten. If I can be any help even if you just want to have a moan please feel free to contact me.

We're in Zell am See - a lovely town by the lake so quite away from Vienna - otherwise it would have been lovely to see you Strudelface. Because the area is so small there're no international schools and I'm really starting to agree that perhaps it's time to go home. We are moving onto having some children around after school and I think that will help.

I'm not sure how dh will take my idea that we should call it a day though as we're just about to start building a holiday home here.

It's all a bit worse today because dh has gone back to uk where his company is and will stay there till Friday. I just wish we hadn't come - I thought it was a silly idea when dh first mentioned it but the girls were so excited...

You sound pretty isolated there. That must make your DDs difficulties settling in at school more difficult to handle. It is still early days, probably seems an eternity to you though. Your dds were really excited to begin with. What do you think changed to make them lose that excitement?
When we were away I really felt like coming home after the first 6 weeks. It is difficult being in an unfamiliar place especially when it is a struggle to communicate.
I am glad we stuck it out and don't know how I would have coped with the anti-climax if we had come home earlier. I think it made us stronger as a family getting through the difficulties and then enjoying it.
It sounds like you are in a beautiful place which may get even better as spring progresses.....

You mentioned the head talking to your DH about the situation. Did he have any suggestions about how to make things easier for your dds? The school have some responsibility to try and sort things out.

The trouble really started when I took them into school rather than dh. I saw DD1 being pushed really hard in the back by another girl in the cloakroom and I was horrified.

As soon as DD1 came out I asked if she had been pushed and she started to cry and said that she hadn't. I pursued it with her - after all I had seen it and she went onto say that all the boys and girls do this to her.

Well, full of upset I immediately approached the head who looked at me blankly and told me all the children push and shove - it's just their way. I've spoken at length to dh who says the same and says it's not just DD1 that gets it, they all do it to eachother - it's just that this behaviour would never be tolerated in their school at home (UK) so they aren't used to it.

This was the start of the downward spiral - DD1 and DD2 saw how upset I was and it's become a really big deal to them although I've since tried to downplay it - but still keep tabs on the situation.

Oh no it gets worse. That must have been intolerable for you. I can see why you want to get them out of there. How confusing for your dds as that behaviour would be unacceptable in a British school. (Well you'd hope so anyway). It can't be doing much for their self-esteem to be in that kind of learning environment. Does your DH think it is acceptable then?

I don't know if I am on shaky ground comparing a small Austrian town with Berlin where I live. They may be wildly different but I am assuming because of the common language, they may have a lot in common generally. I would say adults as well as dc do best here if they are robust types. Berlin is not really the right place for sensitive or shy people.

I have to say I find the behaviour of dc towards each other here very rough physically and also unnecessarily nasty (my interpretation of it as a foreigner mind you). Kindergarten was awful in this respect and I didn't appreciate the behaviour of the staff towards dc or parents either. Teachers/carers do seem to have this attitude that dc have to toughen up because that's life.

For example, we have a boy in dd's class who put his hands around another boy's throat and tried to strangle him, knocked another boy to the ground and then kicked him in the head and our (church!) school didn't seem to find that behaviour warranted any particular action on their part. At kindergarten there were kids picking up sticks in the garden and beating other kids on the head with them - and that was apparently all normal too. (And you have to keep in mind these are private places in what is supposed to be a good part of town).

Dd suffers more from the things dc say to each other and she often comes home from school a total wreck because of it. Maybe it is just as well your dc don't understand much, keeps them blissfully ignorant! Luckily dd is well integrated in the class but there is no-one else there who is .like her, she's bouncy and fun and what I think of as normal child-like. The dc are mostly long-faced and tell each other off all the time. I rarely see them giggle and clown about and I do worry that this isn't the nicest place to grow up TBH. I would leave like a flash to go almost anywhere else.

My problem with all this is dd was born here and I really have nothing to compare this behaviour to. It's a long time ago I was at school and my school life (being an expat dc in a convent school in Africa) was so much more sheltered. We had none of that at all.

If your dc were happy at school in the UK, I would consider returning. They are not going to master German by September anyway, you know. And these social interaction problems are frankly not going to improve. I think it's pretty much parr for the course here. However, if it is a beautiful and on the whole friendly place, maybe having a holiday home there is a good way of helping your dc develop their German over the years, without all the stress.

sorry that's so negative (not to mention long!)

Is home schooling not allowed in Austra? It isn't allowed in Germany or I would have had my ds atleast out of school by now.
Maybe if you still have your house in the UK you could officially de-register them from Austria but keep them with you and home school?
The school atmosphere sounds awful, poor girls.

Actually I think that is a very good idea, Admylin. Could you imagine doing that, indiajane?

Ahh, I thought you weren't in Vienna as you can't move for expats and international schools here!

I can sympathise re the school. I have found that the whole feel of Volksschules here are completely different to primary schools in the UK. The teachers are stricter, it is more competetive and it is not so touchy feely, for want of a better expression.

Anyway, I second SSShakeTheChi's last paragraph of her long post.

I wish you luck in what you decide to do.

SSShakethechi - your message really resonated with me because on the day of the "incident" I took both DD1 and DD2 home and on the way home DD1 told me that she didn't want to learn German anymore because she didn't want to be able to understand what the other children were saying about her.

God I was choking back tears at that point

The school they go to in UK is an all girls private one. There is absolutely no physical aggression whatsoever. To shove another girl would be like the sky fell down. There is however, one hell of a lot of bitchiness. Lots of "clubs" lots of exclusion and lots of "i'm your friend today... but I may not be tomorrow". God that sounds awful doesn't it?! It's a really good school though - honest!

I think having the info that they aren't realisitically going to grasp German by the end of the school year really does pre-dispose me to going home early. I will have to have a chat with dh when he comes back. I'm afraid this will cause signifant problems though - he's project managing the Austrian house build... we need to give 3 months notice on the house we're renting..

Admylin, I already teach DD2 at home because she can read/write etc fluently and her UK school have told me that I must keep this going. I could do both of them but think that I may as well take them home in that case. I'm not worried about them falling behind - their UK school has told me they're both bright (I pay the school well so they have to say nice stuff ) and won't have any trouble catching up next year.

Maybe a planned exit at Easter if possible... having said all this though - DD1 was so excited about going to school today (they're going to the cinema to see Madagascar ?!!) - wish she'd make her mind up (only joking)

Well I have to plead guilty to being a prophet of doom and old misery generally, so let me change tack...

Why is your dh so keen to buy a holiday home there? Is he an ardent skier or something? I saw some web pictures of the place and it does look idyllic. What does your dh have to say about the dds' problems at school and settling in there generally?

Yes, both of us a big skiers which is the main reason and it's "got" to be in Austria because dh speaks fluent German and really really loves it here - he says he feels more at home here than anywhere! We've found a fab bit of land to build on and it will be great for holidays in future. With 3 kids in tow it's getting a bit expensive to keep going to hotels!

I think he feels that lots of the trouble with them settling is my fault - because I make things into a big deal (his words not mine) He is however concerned and wouldn't want them to be unhappy. When he comes back I will discuss all of your thoughts with him - in particular the bit about 9 months not being long enough in the first place and will see what he says.

In the meantime we have more children from school arranged to come over on friday which is good news

Indiajane, what an awful situation for you...

Have to say though, I do think it´s too early to throw in the towel. On the language side, it may well take 6 months to learn a language (passively) and longer to speak it fluently. If anything, I´d be tempted to cut the extra classes for the time being, which might make the girls day more bearable. There is nothing unusual about your DD stopping "communicating" imo.. her key job is to LISTEN and tune in to another language. I do know other children who have done exactly this and who only start to speak the foreign language when they are completely confident about doing so.

As you´re building a house I would be tempted to emphasize that you will be spending a lot of time in Austria and now is the time to learn the language properly. MAybe your DD is thinking in terms of it´s not worth making the effort. And one negative DD could have a bad influenc on the other.

It maybe worth investigating whether there are any Steiner schools nearby. The ethos would not be like the one you have described. I know there are lots in Germany so they may have them in Austria as well. It would mean changing school but if it made the next few months bearable then it would be worth it.

I will google steiner now (inbetween making dh's birthday cards with DD's ). We have a 20 minute drive to school already so we could cope with a bit further if the school is better.

Happy - I'm pretty sure that dh will agree with your view about it being too early to throw in towel and I've also been thinking about cutting out the additional German lessons. I reduced them from 5 a week to 4 last week - maybe just cut them out. I will talk to the girls and see if that would make their day better. I know there's quite alot of agro at lunch times - before their German lesson as the boys gang up on the girls and kick them!!

I'll have never seen so much of them if they come home at 11.40.

I will ask them if this will improve their day and make them any happier and let you know what they say.

indiajane, Ive just seen this thread, am sorry you are having these problems.
try steiner and montessori schools. I have 2 austrian colleagues, so will ask them about private schools. I am just over the border in germany, and thats pretty much the choice for private schools here. The montessori schools are very gentle, and usually offer an excellent education.

my children came last april and have now been a year in germany. dd1 picked up the language quickly, she is 10 and super communicative. ds1, 9, rather more average communicator, is struggling a bit, sounds pretty much like your dd. He is being penalised a lot by the school, who make no allowances for language learning, and keeps saying that he is the 'Burgermeister von Loserstadt' and other such stuff. (see other moaning threads from me, about the tough time we are having at the moment).
I am going to chuck in the towel and leave, because of ds's problems actually.
thought it might help you to know that you are not alone. I have heard so many similar stories from foreign parents here.

Hi all. I did indeed google steiner but there is nothing that is remotely possible (the nearest appears to be Salzburg).

Anyway, we (I) have decided to go home... mostly due to DH deciding that we don't have enough money to build where we wanted to and he's decided that he needs to move his factory to Bulgaria....so he will be away for months at a time

Rather than stick it out for the next 6 months on my own with the DC I've decided to call it a day. Every day has been a battle - tummy ache, ear ache, - and I can't help but say that I'm really really glad to be going home.

Thanks for all your help, advice and ideas

sorry things didn't work out the way you'd both planned but it's good to hear that you feel this decision is the right one for you. How do the dc feel about moving back?