Feeling really :( today, want to leave Germany

[SSSandy]

I know this will offend any Germans on MN but I have to talk about it somewhere, so rather than risk being hurt by what I write, please don't read further!

I don't like to talk about it to Germans I know here for fear of offending them but I hate living in Germany, and apart from the first 3 months when it was all an adventure and I still had my sense of humour intact, I've always disliked it.

I do meet decent people and nice things happen of course but the overwhelming tenor of life here I find so negative and it really really gets me down.

I don't know why I'm writing this other than that I have to get it off my chest. I feel so very sad today (dd's birthday) thinking we may well be here for years to come. I would love for her to grow up somewhere else. I had such a lovely childhood in Africa by comparison where people were so friendly and warm and I wish she had something like that too.

I do try to see the good points about this place and there are some, but I don't think I will ever feel at home or happy here. We're stuck here because of dh's job which is a very good one and well paid. He wouldn't give it up just to do any old thing somewhere else. He would like to stay.

I told him this morning that I would like to leave with dd which is all very well - but where do we go and how is dd going to cope? She's just started school here (6) and hasn't learnt to read or write yet. I see so many difficulties with a move, not to mention her not seeing dh anymore (or very rarely) but I don't feel I can face another year here. I don't know what to do really but I feel I've been here so long now that if I don't like living here by now and I did try, I don't think I ever will

Plus.

Can't speak for the whole of Germany but it is representative of my daily experiences for the past 8 years in Berlin. Rarely had a day without experiencing that kind of thing either directed at me or at someone else.

Well I can't recall coming across this behaviour this bad. Might have happened, but if it did, it must have been very very rare indeed.

Berlin must be a difficult place to live in that case, but not of all Germany is like that.

sssandy, I lived in Berlin and Frankfurt, and know what you mean about public rudeness: It's all the time.

But I have to say I think there are a lot of very friendly nice people in Berlin. You say you feel you're fobbing off invitations and withdrawing, so my advice would be (getting all German and direct myself for a minute), would be, even if you don't feel like it, do accept invitations and try to join parents' groups, because I honestly think that path would lead you into meeting nice people with whom you had things in common, and having fun with them. Then the public rudeness/Berliner Schnauze thing wouldn't be so offputting. You could say 'right, I'm going to go along to at least 5 sessions of a parents' group and make the best effort I can to meet people, however much I don't want to' and then see what results it brings you.

Of course the wider issue is that you're living there for the sake of your partner, and maybe you could discuss with him where to move to next, and emphasise that you have needs and wishes too! I'm just coming to the situation as someone who has lived in loads of random places, and I have really come to believe that you can find nice people almost anywhere, but you have to be determined and not give up, and have faith that people will like you and you'll like them..

hope this waasn't too much of a rant, and wish you all the best

Hi gemmity, yes I have met a lot of people who are friendly but if they're foreign you tend to spend hours with everyone going on about how awful Germany is and I find that doesn't help. No doubt this happens everywhere not just here.

German friends tell me they get annoyed at the rudeness, confrontational or aggressive nature of people they meet in the course of the day too but they just say to themselves "s/he's an idiot" and shrug it off. It doesn't seem to hit home with them the way it does with me, they manage not to take it personally. I don't see myself ever taking it all in my stride though. I know Russians have fewer problems with it, but then they've been through a tough school on the whole and can generally give as good as they get. I find Germany is a very tough place to live, although like I said good things do happen and I do meet decent and helpful people.

My dream would be to leave though

By the way, Admylin, I forgot to say (further down the thread) if you and I (heaven forbid) are still here when the time comes, I'll help you with the gymnasium thing of course. Sorry if I got you into a real panic about that!

I agree with emkana - I haven't experienced much of this kind of behaviour at all, and nothing like the 'weg da' incident (well, except once when I was sitting in a half-empty U-Bahn 28 weeks pg and a woman came and plonked herself down half on my bump, saying 'I want to sit here' - but I would never have considered her representative of Germans). I have experienced German directness and insistence on the 'right way' of doing things, but the trick is not to take it as rude.
You really do have to inure yourself to it. A lot of it is typical big-city stuff.

I had a very similar incident a few years ago when visiting my sister in Berlin. I was in the Ka De Wa and had picked up two lovely christmas candlesticks and was on the escalator up to the next level when this woman swept up said something to me (which not speaking German I didn't understand) and then just grabbed the candlesticks out of my hands and swept off up and off the escalator!

I was so shocked! Luckily there were loads of them so I just went back and picked up some more - but I really did feel annoyed.

I find the general argy bargy a bit irritating, but the Italians and French can be almost as bad IME.

So sorry you are unhappy there - my sis was there for about 10 years and really liked it! Takes all sorts I guess

I think gemmity post is spot on. I do feel for you, sssandy, as I sometimes too feel that my personality is changing.
I'm always fascinated though at how our perception of what is rude/aggressive etc is different and cultural. I (a loud and quite direct Italian) sometimes see english politeness as lack of interest. and then I start to make myself guilty, and think, perhaps it's my fault, it's because I don't speak well, etc etc. why is it? I used to be at ease with myself when I was at home! so sssandy, I really really understand where you are coming from. perhaps i should move to california. what is the weather like today californifamou...? actually, here it's gorgeous!

californietc, you are a woman of talent! I wish I could be a good singer. where did you learn your italian (sorry, have been on mn only for a short time)?
33 degrees, that's hot for septmber, or is it normal over there?

I did major joining in when the kids were small, but they never really wanted to go to the baby - toddler clubs. We found an english play group one afternoon a week but in the end we were 3 brits, 1 american and the rest were germans who had lived abroad for a year with families and they basically wanted free english tuition so their kids didn't forget their english. That spoiled it abit.
In the end I gave up with the german groups and sentthe kid sto kindergarten to learn german which they did but otherwise was a waste of time (mixed groups so 1 child ds's age and all the others were younger going down to 1 year old)
Today some one at school complimented me on my good german but it still isn't good enough to get a decent job or go to a course for germans. I feel so stupid here but I know I'm not, when I lived in France I could speak perfect french like a native after a couple of years including accent, I also used to write in english, now I am sometimes searching for words to describe what I feel as if I've been switched off inside. I found my old diary from when I first came to Germany and I can hardly believe I wrote it.

bello Firenze!

admylin I'm the same, my english doesn't improve and my italian is getting worse... german is said to be v. difficult to learn

SSSandy it sounds like you need to come and try Austria for a change ....no honestly, I like it even though my german is dreadful.

I always thought Austrians were more or less lik eBavarians and they are a "klasse fuer sich" , you either love them or hate them!

Well you're all going to say for the love of Gd SSSandy, get a grip on yourself and get on the next plane out when you hear this:

I did a bit of minor therapy yesterday. It went like this: I did some basic shopping (bread and milk and stuff) in the foodhalls of an expensive dept. shore because I just COULD NOT face another supermarket. Then I bought THE SOUND OF MUSIC DVD (!?!). Dd and I flaked out on the sofa eating salt and vinegar crisps and watching Maria singing her way around Austria and do you know, it helped a little bit! Dd and I were singing "How do you solve a problem like Maria?" on the way to school this morning and no idea what people thought of us but the old fogies who sit on the roof of the old people's home in the mornings were all waving down at us. Perhaps they didn't have their teeth in and couldn't shout at us to shut up!

I can remember being a child in Africa and watching that film which was so remote from our daily life at the cinema and I loved it. I have a suspician even that Julie Andrews is to blame for me ever agreeing to come to Germany in the first place! Did you hear that Julie?

This summer back home I got that for the kids to watch on dvd and chitty chitty bang bang and Mary poppins and they loved the songs too. That is part of childhood , watching teh sound of music and of course Wizard of Oz! Once we saw The sound of music was on the german TV and got all excited as I was sure atleast the songs would be in English but they weren't, it was such a let down not to be able to sing along!
Where did you get the salt and vinager crisps? Withdrawel symptoms...!

Love Mary Poppins. We don't have Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. Keep meaning to get it via Amazon but never do. Always forget when we're in the UK.

I get my crisps at Wertheim where they have all the foreign food. I shouldn't do it, jeans were tight this morning

You know I think there is a real correlation between affinity for people/culture and learning language so I can understand that French came to you so easily. When I first came to Germany, I was so open and positive about all things German, I learnt German very fast. Germans would always be surprised when I told them I was foreign because although I made slip ups with grammar, I didn't have a foreign accent after the first 3 months. I've found after I spent an hour speaking to anyone, if I like them, I walk away with their accent although it isn't intentional at all. I do have an ear for it, this applies to English too, any language I speak.

Once I stopped liking Germany and became so unhappy here, I didn't want to speak with a German accent, I didn't want to be a part of the place anymore I think. Language is so intimately tied up with emotion that I think that's natural.

I've noticed, if someone's dp is German and she loves him, a woman will also be more inclined to want to like and appreciate his country because it's part of him and who he is, what formed him. I knew an Australian woman like that who never saw anything bad in Germany or anyone German till she went off dp, and then she never saw any good anymore! I've found the foreign women who to me seem happiest and most settled here are those with German dp's.

Maybe Franca you need a fiery English lover! - Just kidding, of course. I loved Italy, even just the little things, like people wearing white gloves when they they portion and hand you ham. It's so CIVILISED. I don't know what it is like to live in Italy but I would sure as hell be willing to try it! Starting tomorrow.

Yes, you are right about the language, I loved France and all the french customs and traditions and I would quite happily have become a french citizen, You know why? My first great love of my life was french and the reason for me being in France, in fact I'm waiting for him to come searching for me, his long lost true love and take me back to it all... oh, sorry went off into a day dream there!
By the way I would also go to Italy tomorrow, am ready to go anywhere,nice and civilized and child friendly. Always wanted to learn Italien or Spanish.
A friend of mine had her ds in Germany (she is british, dh is German) and her dh wanted more kids but she refused as she was clever enough to see what everything was like and how it would be, life is very difficult to organize in Germany when you have kids. Any way he begged and begged but she refused, then his company offered him a job in the UK so off they went - now they have 4 kids because as soon as she set foot in the UK she saw how she could have a life and have a big family.

I don't have any experience of being a mother and living in any other country so I find it hard to judge whether mothers have it particularly easy or difficult here. I find it difficult but don't know if it really is so much easier elsewhere IYSWIM.

I've always found that everything with the baby/child was such a hassle to organise. I know one woman with 4 dc but her dp is very involved and they always seem to have either her dm or his staying and she has 3 babysitters so she always has someone she can call. It still seems a masterpiece of organisation though. She has a 6 month old baby, a dc in kindergarten, one at primary school, another at Gymnasium. She picks up the primary school girl at 1.30 and takes her home for lunch, the oldest gets home around 2.15 and has her lunch then, the kindergarten girl gets picked up at 3.30. Can you imagine it? And then the afternoon activities on top of that...

Stressfull just thinking about it! I'm sure I would have had more than 2 if I'd lived in the UK though.

I would have liked 4 (maybe I'm kidding myself!). Not here though

Not that I would have fancied giving birth 4 x...

Admylin, remember I told you I was taking dd to Aida for her birthday on Saturday. Well, guess what happened? They cancelled the performance! She was so upset. We sat there for about half an hour while they tried to fix the problem and then they announced that unfortunately they couldn't. Apparently they're sending us vouchers we can use for a different performance.

Definitely will go there with dd again but I won't organise something like that as a birthday treat again though, it is so disappointing if things go wrong.

Hi SSSandy

Read your post yesterday and really felt for you. My first thoughts were of Californifrau and how she was so unhappy in Germany too and now she has blossomed since moving.

I hae never been to Germany but I live in Budapest and sometimes find the Hungarians bad but your supermarket story was unbelieveable. The Hungarians are not into customer service - I make it my mission to get shop assistants/waitresses smile at me!

I think you need to sit down and have a serious talk with your DH. You sound depressed and that cannot be good for your DD or your family as a whole. It is all very well your DH wanting to stay but as someone who has moved about a lot and experienced various difficulties etc. in my experience if the wife is not happy then things need to change.

We live in Vietnam for 6 years (pre DS) and I hated it for the first 2. Sat down and worked out what it was I hated and we removed as much of those negatives as possible and (most importantly) put a time limit on how long we would stay after the changes. We agreed one more year and stayed for 4 more!

We are now 2 years into our 4th posting and I really do not want to move again unless to UK. DH knows this and while he would be happy to move we will probably stay here unless something really good comes up. DH was offered a promotion and more money recently to go to Kazakstan but I just said no way. (His boss knw it was a long shot when he offered so wasn't too surprised!). He could and would move to Moscow tomorrow but double what he is on here. But he (and most of his company!) know that I won't do Moscow. \

It is all about compromise and while it may not sound like I do compromise (!), I have moved 4 times already for DH's career.

Our marriage is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but I know that DH would rather know that I was happy in where we lived than he be promoted or earn more money. In some ways it is very easy for me to say this as he is doign pretty well anyway.

Sorry for all the waffle but I really feel that your DH needs to take your unhappiness more seriously.