Feeling really :( today, want to leave Germany

[SSSandy]

I know this will offend any Germans on MN but I have to talk about it somewhere, so rather than risk being hurt by what I write, please don't read further!

I don't like to talk about it to Germans I know here for fear of offending them but I hate living in Germany, and apart from the first 3 months when it was all an adventure and I still had my sense of humour intact, I've always disliked it.

I do meet decent people and nice things happen of course but the overwhelming tenor of life here I find so negative and it really really gets me down.

I don't know why I'm writing this other than that I have to get it off my chest. I feel so very sad today (dd's birthday) thinking we may well be here for years to come. I would love for her to grow up somewhere else. I had such a lovely childhood in Africa by comparison where people were so friendly and warm and I wish she had something like that too.

I do try to see the good points about this place and there are some, but I don't think I will ever feel at home or happy here. We're stuck here because of dh's job which is a very good one and well paid. He wouldn't give it up just to do any old thing somewhere else. He would like to stay.

I told him this morning that I would like to leave with dd which is all very well - but where do we go and how is dd going to cope? She's just started school here (6) and hasn't learnt to read or write yet. I see so many difficulties with a move, not to mention her not seeing dh anymore (or very rarely) but I don't feel I can face another year here. I don't know what to do really but I feel I've been here so long now that if I don't like living here by now and I did try, I don't think I ever will

[snowleopard]

Sssandy I dopn't have much advice but just to say don't feel bad about how you feel. I lived in Cannada for a while once and it nearly drove me insane. I just did not "get" the people, the culture, the "national character" if there is such a thing - and they didn't get me. I think that happens annd it's not shameful or racist to say that's how you feel. After all it's perfectly OK to say you love a country and its people and feel understood there - that's not racist - and i think it's aso OK to say Germany is just not doing it for you.

Good luck - hope you can work something out.

[Marina]

Boundless sympathies SSSandy. I work with a number of German nationals who despite obvious affection for their country of birth would never, ever want to go back and live there.
I am not totally sure about moving to a smaller city though. A friend had the choice of living in Koln or somewhere in the surrounding area a few years ago and chose a small town about 30 mins away. She HATED it so much - people putting notes through her letterbox when she let the children play out during official "quiet time", being publicly dressed down for jaywalking and not wrapping up her baby properly, having a number of items of clothes belonging to her dd stolen at kindergarten and the staff refusing to help. Of course this sort of thing can and does happen elsewhere, but one has to say that despite it being the land of Goethe, Schiller and Bach it doesn't sound a very friendly place...
Nobody here thinks you hate all German people...every country has its downside.

[snowleopard]

Canada (sorry Canadians, I was not very nice about your homeland but I can spell it! )

[franca70]

Hi sssandy,
I haven't posted on mn for a while, partly because we've been on holiday, partly becaue I've been working a lot and partly because I always feel "different".
I know how you feel. I'm Italian and have been living in England for 7 years now, but, even if I'm perfectly aware of the many qualities of this beautiful country, still, I'm not happy. I've got a few friends, my dd daughter was born here, we live in what is considered to be a lovely city, ds who is 4 years old has a beautiful english accent.
But, try as I might, I can't consider england my home, and I go through really depressing spells. It's weird, because I've always thought of myself as quite a cosmopolitan person, at ease everywhere and in every situation. I had to admitt that i'm not that person. I really hope that you'll feel better soon, that you'll manage to sort out things with your husband. all the best

[tribpot]

Sympathies. I've never lived in Germany but have lived abroad and hated it, mainly I think because I felt trapped by things outside my control. My two favourite cities, Barcelona and Amsterdam, I used to loathe when I lived there, B because I had a godawful job and couldn't leave because it was my year abroad from uni (when I did eventually give up my uni went mad and threatened not to accredit my year abroad so I'd have had to do it again at my own expense or change degree courses with one year to go). Amsterdam because I had a horrible job which involved constantly being onsite and so commuting back and forth weekly, grim.

It sounds like part of the problem with you is that you feel trapped in Germany, and trapped by dh's job. My next assignment after Amsterdam was in the *rse end of Sweden, but I was significantly happier with it because I went as a contractor, could leave whenever a contract ended without any acrimony and wasn't forced into it by my employer. It still wasn't great, but I knew it was my choice, and that made all the difference.

Do you know any other non-Germans who are also heartily fed up with Berlin?

[emkana]

What is jaywalking?

geekgrrl, people from the Rhineland are amongst the jolliest Germans there are, I'll have you know!

SSandy, sorry you're not happy. From what I've heard, people in Berlin are renowned for being particularly grumpy and rude. So things might be different in a smaller town.

[geekgrrl]

jaywalking is a pedestrian crossing the road when the little man is still red. Carries a punishment of immediate execution by one of those machine-gun toting German policemen.

[fridascruffs]

sssandy, could have written this myself! I came to live in france with DP when DS was 6 months old, and have since had DD, born in france. There are so many nice things about france, but i just can't contemplate living here for good. I also spent my childhood all over- s Africa, NAmibia, the US, and I've travelled for a living as an adult, so it's not that I've never been outside the UK. At first we lived on the Riviera, and I also felt that the rudeness and hostility really detracted from quality of life. My DP and I very, very nearly split up over it- he's Dutch and refuses to live in UK. Now that I have 2 small children at the late age of 41, I just want to finally go home, and have some roots. That's not france for me. Fortunately things are going better between DP and I, and he has suggested we move to California where my parents and brother are (!! Never ever thought he'd be prepared to live in US so am stunned), which would be better than france in some respects but oh god, they voted for bush. One has principles! Am still mulling this choice. Don't know what to do.
Anyway, I wanted to say: if you are thinking of leaving, make sure you know about the Hague Convention regarding the child- you cannot just take DD with you out of the country without DH's permission or the permission of a court, or you can be charged by him with abduction and ordered to return the children. Have a look at Reunite's website for info on this. Beware lawyers as I've been told here in france that of course I can leave- total rubbish, they don't know what they're talking about.
I hope you manage to work out something with DH that works for both of you. It's by far the best solution.

[SSSandy]

Thanks everyone for the replies. With dd's birthday, I've been too busy to get back on line. Feeling less fragile today.

ggglimpopo I was born in Ghana and spent my childhood between Zambia and the UK. I remember Zimbabwe of course but haven't been back to Africa since we left as children.

NotSoUseless and Senora, I wish he would look for a job elsewhere but he is very happy with the position he has so he won't really contemplate it. Notso ... preferring London to Italy. Well ok, still trying to get my head around that one but I know what you mean,we need different things to make us happy I suppose.

[SSSandy]

Hi admylin, I think TBH if we went to work here, it might end up the final straw. Can't say I had overwhelmingly positive experiences when I did work here but I don't know, you may be right about that.

Thanks for your sweet message, scummy mummy but it really does look as if I will need to leave Germany on my own if I do leave. Perhaps in time dh would decide to follow but I honestly don't see him giving up what he has for a job he'd find less fulfilling. Just don't see it if I'm honest with you.

[SSSandy]

Didn't realise Prague was like Germany (in terms of shop assistants) That's good to know, I won't be moving there then!

Marina, yes I can't help feeling that smaller towns might be more invasive than Berlin is. We don't really have the option of moving far away from Berlin really since dh's job is here.

snowleopard funny isn't it? I've always thought what a nice country Canada must be. I don't know why but it's the image I have of Canada, although I've never been there and don't know much about it. I think like NotsoUselessMum was saying, you just click with the people in some places and the whole set-up but not in others.

[SSSandy]

Hi franca so you've been in the UK about as long as I've been here. Sorry it doesn't feel like home for you. Are you planning on staying indefinitely? Is your dh British?

Thanks fridacuffs, that's a good point about the Hauge Convention. Hadn't thought of that. So we have people unhappy in the UK, in Germany, in Spain, Italy and in France! Think you should try living in California if dh is willing. Is Holland an option for you both?

Tribpot thanks that's food for thought. I hadn't thought about whether I feel trapped here (which I suppose I do being dependent on dh's wage and being tied down with a child) perhaps that is part of it. I do meet an awful lot of foreign people though who (after the first couple of years) really don't enjoy living here. It's easier for some to up and leave than others.

[NotSoUselessMum]

Hi SSSandy, I know, everyone think I am crazy, maybe I am. is your dh german?
did you move there ojust because of his job?

[franca70]

Hi saaandy, I'm glad to hear you're feeling a bit better today. Dh is italian, has been living in England for more than ten years now. He's having a good career in academia, which would be unthinkable in Italy for the time being.
It was v. easy for me to decide to join him in England, among the two of us, he was the one who was happier in his job, and I, having been to England for quite a few times, thought I would love it. Instead i find it very difficult living here regardless the fact that I consider England a great place to be. Maybe it's because I don't have a job and I don't actively feel as part of a community, iyswim. maybe it's because we live in a small city, and I am a city person. maybe it's because the more my children grow, the more i feel my cultural background it's different from that of the place they are growing up in (I don't mean better or worse, just different). do you feel the same? gosh I'm too tired and can't make much sense. true is, that I lived for the first 28 yrs of my life in the same place. all my friends and family are there. and I still miss them like hell. It's nice to talk to someone who can relate to these feelings. I really hope you'll make up your mind in one sense or another. sorry, have to go now, but hope to chat with you again, take care

[franca70]

Hi saaandy, I'm glad to hear you're feeling a bit better today. Dh is italian, has been living in England for more than ten years now. He's having a good career in academia, which would be unthinkable in Italy for the time being.
It was v. easy for me to decide to join him in England, among the two of us, he was the one who was happier in his job, and I, having been to England for quite a few times, thought I would love it. Instead i find it very difficult living here regardless the fact that I consider England a great place to be. Maybe it's because I don't have a job and I don't actively feel as part of a community, iyswim. maybe it's because we live in a small city, and I am a city person. maybe it's because the more my children grow, the more i feel my cultural background it's different from that of the place they are growing up in (I don't mean better or worse, just different). do you feel the same? gosh I'm too tired and can't make much sense. true is, that I lived for the first 28 yrs of my life in the same place. all my friends and family are there. and I still miss them like hell. It's nice to talk to someone who can relate to these feelings. I really hope you'll make up your mind in one sense or another. sorry, have to go now, but hope to chat with you again, take care

[NotSoUselessMum]

Franca70 is right. moving because of DH/P is tough. Obviously once you have a family it is not easy anymore to do just what's good for you but it puts you in a situation you've got no control over it.
see I moved to the UK when I was 21. It was my decision ans I did it on my own. I stayed through good and bad times because I was staying for myself, IYSWIM.
Even now, if I were, god forbid, to split with DH I would not think of going back, since all my life, which I've built on my own is here.

it would be different if we go somewhere just because of DH's job. he's pushing to move and I am resisting because of it. I do not want to feel trapped and that all I care about is inside the family. I think to feel good inside it you need a network on the outside.

I know it is easier said and done. after all if is DH to bring in the money for the family it is difficult to say: I don't want to go/stay because I do not like it.

DH and I are having a few rows over it. DH wants to move I do not. He gets all upset as he says he's thinking about the family and I only think about living next to a theatre.
I get his point but I am thinking about the family too. just in a different way.

[NotSoUselessMum]

Franca70 is right. moving because of DH/P is tough. Obviously once you have a family it is not easy anymore to do just what's good for you but it puts you in a situation you've got no control over it.
see I moved to the UK when I was 21. It was my decision ans I did it on my own. I stayed through good and bad times because I was staying for myself, IYSWIM.
Even now, if I were, god forbid, to split with DH I would not think of going back, since all my life, which I've built on my own is here.

it would be different if we go somewhere just because of DH's job. he's pushing to move and I am resisting because of it. I do not want to feel trapped and that all I care about is inside the family. I think to feel good inside it you need a network on the outside.

I know it is easier said and done. after all if is DH to bring in the money for the family it is difficult to say: I don't want to go/stay because I do not like it.

DH and I are having a few rows over it. DH wants to move I do not. He gets all upset as he says he's thinking about the family and I only think about living next to a theatre.
I get his point but I am thinking about the family too. just in a different way.

[foundintranslation]

Hi Sandy, only just seen this. Sorry you're feeling down about Berlin and it seems to be a long-term thing. I can't empathise directly about Berlin as I am very fond of it and found it hard to leave, but I certainly can about being unhappy in the place where you are. We have never really found our feet here (small Swabian town) and really don't 'get' the mentality, and are looking forward to moving (back to Berlin ) in hopefully six months' time.

Germans are often very direct and have a certain insistence on their way of doing things, it's true, but OTOH I have met a lot of lovely people with lovely attitudes here. They are also, IME, very anglophile, which is very touching but as I feel half German in many ways by now it sometimes gets rather irritating for me to 'disappear' as a person behind the fact of my being English iyswim.

I'm sure you know B very well, but I can tell you some lovely places, if you like, where you can feel and are treated as 'human'. And when I get back we can go there together if you like.

[franca70]

I do not want to feel trapped and that all I care about is inside the family. I think to feel good inside it you need a network on the outside.

couldn't agree more!

[admylin]

Hi SSSandy, I think you are right, if we even tried to go back to work it would be the last straw, immagining the hassle of school holiday and afternoon childcare makes me cringe!
When I get fed up about being in Germany I try to think ofthe few things that are better here than back home. Start with the health care system, it is still better than in UK in many ways - what else, maybe the beer and eating out is better and cheaper than UK, we got a shock this summer at how quickly a family meal goes into the 100 pounds price range.
The public transport...put simply: it works, it's integratedand and it's reliable, even rural areas in Germany are well connected.
Then the low crime rate , we are from a small town in the north of England and I've never seen so many steering wheels locked over here, even small cars. Now we live in Berlin and although there is crime for sure it is not half as brutal and aggressive as some of the news I here from UK.
Well, take care I hope you haveand have a better week than last week! I've got ds off school with headache so I hope he isn't going down with anything too bad. Only 1 week till school half term, have you got anything planned?

[SSSandy]

franca and notso - hi!
Maybe I really do need to build up a network outside of my home. I do chat to other mums and things but I tend to withdraw into my own world more and more. I've noticed I do try and fob people off who invite me round and things. I worry sometimes that I might be turning into a weirdo/recluse.

FIT sorry, not attempting to put you off Berlin! I know you're looking forward to coming back. It'll be different for you though, your dh is German and you'll be spending more time together, think that makes a huge difference. He'll be able to deal with some of the everyday situations like bureaucracy and shopping etc, share the burden. It won't all land on you. Think you'll get less of the nastiness too, if you're in East Berlin. I have the impression that East Berliners extend and expect more courtesy that West Berliners do, something to do with that sense of community East Germans have (were perhaps forced to have) and West Germans (or at least Berliners) don't seem to have. I sometimes think this has something to do with the postwar period. It must have been a very harsh environment here, with Berlin bombed to bits and everyone having to look out for themselves, courtesy and politeness probably went out the window when it was everyone for himself and the strongest/loudest got what they wanted maybe?

[SSSandy]

I know admylin, I do try honestly, you know I do. I feel safe here and I like the way buses arrive on time (9.23 exactly), the lack of class system etc but the way people interact with complete strangers I just can't get used to.

I find if you live somewhere new, at first you see and admire everything that's great. After a while, you become jaded and oversee those things, you notice the things that are bad. Then it ticks into place, either you appreciate the good things more and more and laugh about the others or they drag you down and I feel I can't shrug off the bad with a laugh.

Take this morning. Walked dd to school. Passed an old lady with an Alsatian and Doberman off the leash. Nailed a tolerant smile on my face about the dogs in answer to her friendly smile at dd because although I hate those damn dogs off the leash and rolling up to my dc, I know dogs here are like holy cows in India. So I am a BIT assimilated. Get to school ok. No problems. Stupidly then I go to the supermarket at 8am.

They have shoe cupboards on offer. A black guy has bagged a shoe cupboard. This woman (30ish) comes up and grabs the other but wants BOTH. So she pushes him, shouts "weg da!" (go away) and grabs his too. "I'm taking both", she says. So he argues with her about this (politely I thought) but as a black man his position isn't that good, he can't be as tough as say a German man would be, and the shop assistant comes and says the woman should take both. The woman goes away with both to the check out. So I walked over and told him he shouldn't put up with that behaviour. And he says "yes, but you know how it is". This woman buys the cupboards and lugs them to the door, I'm stuck behind the barrier so I can't do much but I shout (loud and clear) that she should be ashamed of herself, her behaviour is disgraceful and wo gibt es sowas? She just shrugs her shoulders, keeps her eyes on the floor and lugs them quickly out to her car. She doesn't give a fig because however she did it, she got what she wanted and that's all that counts.

This old guy in working man's dungarees says to me, "if I want 2 of something, I'll take 2 as well and I wouldn't give a monkeys about anyone else". So I ask him, would you shove someone, say "weg da!" and pull the thing you wanted out of their arms?! He said, if the black man had really wanted it, he'd have been more persistant.

I will never get used to this, whether it happens to me directly or someone else. I know the louder, stronger, more persistant person is the one who wins and everyone thinks that's kind of acceptable but I just don't see myself ever coming round to this way of thinking.

[NotSoUselessMum]

SSSandy, it is horrible!! and I do not blame you for feeling upset about it.
That's what I like about england, people are polite generally. simple things that you notice at first and then becomes the norm but makes life much easier and more pleasant for every one. when walking on the streets, for example, everyone tries to keep out of other people's way and if you slight touch someone there's always a sorry etc.
then I go home and that's not the case at all. it's seems like a battle to get on public transport etc.
I know they are simple things, but life is made of these simple things.

I am now fuming about it. and well done for saying it.

[admylin]

Wow, I can just picture that scene in the supermarket, a daily thing really!I also always go at 8am after dropping the kids off, the shop assistants are always real grumpy at that time because they are tryingto stock shelves and you get the loudest huffs and sighs because they have to come to the till - shouldn't open up if they aren't ready!
You were really brave for speaking up,although I find when everything is getting me down and I am really fed up with Germany I can also bring myself to answer back and stand up for myself! Usually it's our good old british personality that makes us so polite. Do you also let people push in front of you sometimes? They do it allthe time here in the supermarket and on one of my bad days I get my elbows up as soon as I see them coming so they can't get past but mostly I just let it happen!

[NotSoUselessMum]

admlyn, SSSandy I must admit I am quite shocked to hear all that 'cause i though germans to be really polite. Not that I have ever been there but it was just the idea I had.