Moving to The Netherlands and need advice please on schools-Dutch or International?

[irishmumonthemove]

Hello,

We are moving to the Netherlands at the end of June when school is finished for the summer. My DH is already there working close to Amsterdam. We are delighted to have the opportunity to live on the Continent but at the same time we don't know the country at all and are trying to figure out nice, family friendly yet close enough to the city places to live. Also, we fluctuate between sending the children to local Dutch schools ( to enable integration with other kids and locals ) or subsidised International schools ( easier from a language point of view and maybe less stressful in the short - term ).

Does anyone live or used to live in the Netherlands? Would you send an English speaking Irish 9 yr old to a Dutch school and hope for the best? He is a clever boy ( aren't they all! ) and will see it as a challenge I think ( hope ) but I worry about how stressful it might be ( new country, language, culture). How do I find out about good Dutch schools? Should we select a school first and then a house or vice versa? We have been looking at houses on the net in Naarden, Bussum, Hilversum, Leiden, Utrecht. It's hard to decide...

Sorry, I have another one... I know this is a bit off-topic from Dutch schools and where to live but it does illustrate how great Dutch people are at English but how funny it can be at the same time...

One of the Dutchmen in my office was telling a story about one time he had been really embarrassed (forget the details now, this was OMG more than 15 years ago!!!) - he was speaking English, very well and very fluently, and ended the story with "I had butter on my hat!"

"Boter op mijn hoed" = literal translation.

What he really meant was Egg On My Face

Sorry, I have a very odd sense of humour. Maybe you had to be there

Something I loved about living in NL was the seasonality, not just spring, summer, autumn, winter but:

• the herring season (eaten raw dipped in onions)
• Koninginnedag
• Sinterklaas is not the same as Christmas
• New year fireworks
• Oliebollen
• Good gawd it's the gourde season
• the asparagus season
• Spinneweb all over the school in early autumn
• Paasontbijt - easter breakfast at school with everyone (including teachers) in their pyjamas

gourde gnome? What have I been missing out on the last few years?!

Feel like I'm missing out by teaching in secondary...pyjamas would be MUCH more comfortable than jeans and trainers

hearts I have said more stupid things in Dutch than I can remember (including almost asking for haemorrhoids with whipped cream in a restuarant instead of strawberries - aardbeien/aambeien ...easily done).

Where we lived each autumn our neighbours would create (or buy) little tableau made up of weirdly shaped gourdes. These would then be displayed next to the front door. It happened every year so wasnt a one off. I used to think it was rather nice as these would not then be stamped on by local kids as they would where we live now back in the UK.

my inlaws have these next to their back door (which is their front door ). The first year I was here my fil kept trying to give them to me and wouldn't take no for an answer!

I'm just the English teacher who's never heard the word "gourdes" before

DH went to a bilingual secondary with international stream aged 15-18 and is trilingual, although he says his Dutch is rusty from lack of use. His view is that there can be a bit of snobbery on the part of those in the bilingual stream towards those in the monolingual stream which can create a bit if an atmosphere in the school but I don't know how widespread that problem is. He also says that socially the Dutch are much blunter and there's not much distinction between teasing and bullying.

Both of those are social factors which are worth being aware of even if they don't impact hugely on the decision - just so you are prepared for/aren't floored by them.

There were some lovely primary school traditions, many of them to do with birthdays.

In the early years the first couple of hours of the school day of the birthday would be dedicated to celebrating the birthday:

• songs
• games
• a paper sash which had been made by the rest of the class

This all culminated with a cardboard cake with real candles. The most responsible child would be sent along to the teacher in the next class to borrow her cigarette lighter(!). The candles would then be lit one at a time with the teacher talking to the whole class about what they could do when they were 1, 2, 3 etc and then an extra candle would be lit for the coming year.

In later years in primary the birthday girl/boy would bring in chocolates (Merci were perfect for this) for all the staff and would walk round all the classrooms and offer each teacher a chocolate in return for a signature on a birthday card.

April fools day jokes being played by the staff on all the pupils

Knuffel day (take in your cuddly toy)

Taking a shoe in to be filled with sweets for Sinterklaas

Being locked out of the class by Zwarte Piet, having to sing songs out in the hallway while the key was 'found'. Once the classroom was opened the pupils found that it was all in disarray with sooty hand and footprints everywhere.

Spring and autumn country walks

Kerst diner - Christmas dinner hosted by the school with food supplied by all the parents. We introduced the school to mince pies, brandy butter (popular with the staff). One year we supplied Christmas Crackers for the whole school having brought them over from UK (they were very expensive in NL).

These were the things our school did but I'm sure that other schools will have had their own similar but different traditions.

I am enjoying the reminiscences about dutch traditions and look forward to them too. Yes,my DH is telling me anecdotes about Dutch directness and thinks I will fit in there pretty well!! Although I think generally the Irish are not far behind the English in terms of not really saying what they think for fear of offence. It can be a bit of a dance at times. I will bear this in mind but feel sure now I am in for some sort of culture shock.

You can use the directness. Nobody will be at all worried if you ask to have something explained to you. To start with this might be something you want to do with school reports.

If you buy a new outfit and want a genuine answer to the question 'does my bum look big in this?' ask your Dutch friend. If you want to be flattered ask you Polish friend!

Irishmum, have you seen this website? It even lists the term dates of the 2 Hilversum international schools on it, so it must draw quite a few of its children from those schools. Getting your boys involved would perhaps give you a quick route into social circles, plus if you go Dutch, the boys can have English speaking friends too. They even have a facebook page - I'd be posting on there asking if anyone fancied helping you out on the practical and social sides to your move.
www.hilversum-intl.nl/cubscouts.htm

www.facebook.com/pages/Hilversum-International-Scout-Group/144817932222843?ref=ts

www.schoolholidayseurope.eu/netherlands.html

oops, posted a bit quick. Natation's post has reminded me that state school holidays rotate so that regions stake it in turns to have the summer holiday early, middle and late.

I'm enjoying this thread! I usually hang out with the Belgian MNer's (on FB at any rate) as I've never found the Dutch ones. I'm in Limburg anyway, so that's nearly Belgium. Are any of you down this way.....?

Reckon it may be time for a Dutch quiche then baroness ... (or should that be taart?)

Ha! I'm limburg and further south than the baroness! ;)

I've started a Dutch thread so that irishmum can get her thread back

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/living_overseas/1462570-Dutch-quiche-or-taart-perhaps

Natation suggested we change the name to Benelux mumsnetters on facebook. Good idea?

Longtime Is this for a new page, or hijacking the existing Belgian MNetters? If hijacking, only if the existing MNers were happy about it, as I think they actually know each other and meet up.

It's true we do but only occasionally and who knows, maybe you'll come and visit us one day or vice versa?

I'll ask them on the page.

Just a little about our experience of moving dd to school in rural France a month after her 9th birthday in Nov 2006.

Due to the difference in school years, she left on a Tuesday in year 4, and started her new school on the Thursday in year 5. 18months later, she was able to progress to secondary school without any problems. The college had a new principal who put in place extra French lessons for anglophones. She went to these for about a year. She is now at the end of her fourth year in college, and is on target for her Brevet - the school leaving exam, and is applying to lycée to do her chosen bac. The school actually put on a form that she was French, and we've been told that she's the only 'anglophone' not to have an English accent.

In the uk she'd had 2 1/2 years at an independent primary, followed by 2 years at the local one. For the latter 2 years, she'd coasted and hadn't really learned anything, and had become thoroughly disenchanted with the whole thing.

The point I'm making, is that 9 isn't too late to start in a foreign language with a view to making up the difference so as to go up to secondary school without having to repeat a year, or extra tuition. I would think in Holland that there will be much less resistance to English-speaking foreigners, than there is in France.

Good luck with the move.

That's good to hear tb, thanks.

It sounds like your child is a very capable child though tb. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to do, but the experience will not be as positive for every nine year old. However, OP, you do say your ds is clever so hopefully it will be.

I know a mumsnetter who's just moved to Leiden in fact. Shall I ask if you can have her details to talk about the move?

It's very personal. I only have limited experience of children at our Brussels school and our children's old school in the UK. It seems that the under 8s as a whole have no problems adjusting to a new language. From 8 to 10 years, it is that time where language acquisition changes to learning a language more like a 2nd language. So I know a a 9 and 10 year old at our children's old school who were fluent in English in a year, the 10 year old's 8 year old brother however lagged behind his brother and had quite a noticeable accent in English. Our now 10 year old is in a class with some children who have been in Brussels for a couple of years, again they are not fully fluent, you can hear the accent in their voice and they do make grammatical errors, especially like wrong gender. But none of these children who haven't become as fluent as others between the ages of 8 and 10 have ended up not being able to speak any French at all.

Next year, the children in our 10 year old's class will be entered into the annual national spelling competition - already I can predict which 4 children will be entered to go into the finals and well they are all French second language, 40% of the class is second language and many have acquired French after the age of 6 years old, they interestingly seem to be better spellers.

I think that it is important to realise that the Dutch and Belgian (both Flemish and French) education systems are VERY different. The Dutch stream on the basis of the CITO eindtoets. This is why it is so important to ensure that kids can perform at their best when they sit the CITO eindtoets (usually when they are 11 years old). They usually sit the test in February.

As I have pointed out before, there is a huge difference between being proficient in a language and fluent. I don't know any child which has become fluent Dutch in a short period. Then again, there will always be exceptional children who will manage. The younger the child, the more likely it will do well. Plus of course, the younger the child, the more time the child has to become fluent before it really starts to matter.

I don't want to scare you OP, I just think that it is important to have realistic expectations about what your child may or may not achieve and at what cost.

We think it's important to integrate into Dutch society and the best way to do that for the kids is to attend a Dutch school. If there is a problem with the CITO toets, we can look at him attending an International post primary and using the Baccalaureate to apply for University, whether that is in the Netherlands, Belgium or Ireland. Yes, he is very bright and artistic, learns easily and reads independently a lot at home about his varied interests. So, ok it will be a lot for him to take on, especially extra Dutch lessons but then we all will be doing that so we will be in it together.

For example, if the top 20% of Dutch kids attend Gymnasium ( secondary school aimed at University ) and my DS is typically in the top 5% of Irish kids ( standardised assessment results over last few years ), then even if he drops down a bit because of lack of fluency, he could still make the top 20%. It's all conjecture of course and we will have to see how it pans out. There are lots of variables but I think as he is also very sociable and friendly, he will be ok.

Longtime , that would be great thank you.