Moving to The Netherlands and need advice please on schools-Dutch or International?

[irishmumonthemove]

Hello,

We are moving to the Netherlands at the end of June when school is finished for the summer. My DH is already there working close to Amsterdam. We are delighted to have the opportunity to live on the Continent but at the same time we don't know the country at all and are trying to figure out nice, family friendly yet close enough to the city places to live. Also, we fluctuate between sending the children to local Dutch schools ( to enable integration with other kids and locals ) or subsidised International schools ( easier from a language point of view and maybe less stressful in the short - term ).

Does anyone live or used to live in the Netherlands? Would you send an English speaking Irish 9 yr old to a Dutch school and hope for the best? He is a clever boy ( aren't they all! ) and will see it as a challenge I think ( hope ) but I worry about how stressful it might be ( new country, language, culture). How do I find out about good Dutch schools? Should we select a school first and then a house or vice versa? We have been looking at houses on the net in Naarden, Bussum, Hilversum, Leiden, Utrecht. It's hard to decide...

It was a wonderful place to live and raise DCs. The week we moved back a survey was published showing good places to raise DCs. NL was at the top, UK at the bottom.

Agree that Leiden is lovely. A university town (DD1 wants to do a year at Leiden) and has a great natural history museum (big hit with my DCs).

All children are different, but I still think that it is a totally different proposition to ask a six year old to learn Dutch quickly or a nine year old.

Firstly, kids up to approximately 8 years old will learn a new language really quickly compared with older children/adults (other side of the coin is that they also forget languages quickly if they don't keep practising).

Secondly, it is not just about learning the language, whilst learning the language he will have to get on top of the Dutch curriculum to have a good chance in the Cito toets (this is especially an issue if you have an expectation that he will go to university, i.e. he would need to end up in the top stream (vwo)). The risk you would take with the nine year old is a possible underperformance on the Cito toets and hence not ending up in the VWO stream. Clearly, if you were to ask the average Dutch school they probably tell you not to worry, but you will have to pick up the pieces if it goes wrong and not the school. Alternatively, arrange private tutoring in addition to Dutch school for the nine year old, but it will make it very tough for him.

However, I agree with Gnome that it should not be an issue for your seven year old.

OP has mentioned areas 10 to 20 minutes from work in Weesp. Leiden is 60km away and would require commuting around south Amsterdam which means a minimum 45 minutes, goodness knows how long that would be in rush hour, I'm not sure I'd want to live that far from work when I can live somewhere nearby which is nice - not arguing Leiden is lovely, but perhaps not so practical.

Leiden to Weesp is about 45 minutes by train. However, if OP's DH job is outside Weesp, then it may be quite a journey.

My boy aged 9 is academic so I would expect he would attend University so that's why it's a real dilemma regarding the CITO test but most importantly I wouldn't want him completely thrown by new country, language, school, friends etc and cause him stress and upset. Attending an International school would cushion that somewhat I presume.

But GnomedePlume, I have been thinking along those lines all along, ie, short term pain for long term gain by attending dutch school but then my boy is 9, not 6 and would find it harder to accrue the language. My 7 year old will turn 8 at the end of September, and he and his brother and very close and I can't imagine separating them. They would need each other to bounce experiences off and say hi in the school to begin with. Where one goes, the other will follow...

I think we will have to live closer to Weesp, tho I have just looked at the website you mentioned Dikkertjedap, and Leiden is appealing. Hilversum or the surrounding area will be our home I think in a few months. The commute to Weesp is 16 mins by train!

I think the suggestion of attending an International School for a year is a good one so that and extra Dutch lessons might set them up to attend a local Dutch school the following year. The Irish curriculum is broader I think than the UK one so they might do ok with the Dutch curriculum if their Dutch is pretty good. What do you think of that idea?

That may be ideal, but not sure how realistic for the nine year old, as he would then only have 1 year or even less in a Dutch school before sitting the CITO. No matter what they may tell you, lots of Dutch parents who want their kids go to university do ensure lots of CITO preparation. Don't underestimate the CITO toets, it is really tough.

In Hilversum there are some drugs issues at some of the schools, so check them out carefully, make sure you speak to parents and find out why they chose school A over school B. Don't be overly worried, but just keep an eye out.

Irishmumonthemove, here is a map I am currently building for you - going to put the local schools and international-local schools on it, from Hilversum-Bussum-Naarden-Weesp following the train line. The map will grow as I add the schools, same link. I have found this sort of map of great use in helping people find schools where I live, especially when they want to concentrate of a specific area and you can see the proximity of schools to another.

If anyone knows a link where it lists some or all the local schools, not just the Catholic schools group, please post it!!

primary schools map Hilversum-Weesp

Dont forget that the CITO toets is taken over 2 years. DD1 did first year of it then we moved back to UK. DD1 had no difficulty settling back into the final year of primary if that could be a worry.

Just a thought, the academic year cut off is 1st October rather than 1st September. Had impact for us - DD1 went from having just done 1st year primary in UK to 3rd year Primary in NL so effectively skipped a year!

You know your child, my DD1 skipped into school on her first day and had to be called back to give her Dad a kiss. She skipped in every other day after that.

Something else which may be relevant. Certainly the Dalton school my DCs were at was very flexible about holding pupils back if they werent ready to move on. A friend of DD1's did year 3 again. She simply wasnt mature enough the first time around but blossomed the following year.

The CITO thing can depend on the secondary school provision in the area where you live. If there are only a couple of secondary schools in the neighbourhood then that is where they go. All secondary schools have a drugs problem including the international schools (bigger budget!).

Our experience of the Dutch system was that it was flexible and pragmatic. If a pupil is able, they will progress and reach their potential. If they get there a year later will that matter when they are 35? On the other hand they wont flog a dead horse!

Where we lived was outside Rotterdam in a group of villages. As a result there werent the sink schools in the same way as you tend to see in cities. My DCs went to the school at the bottom of the road along with the neighbour kids.

I am so grateful to you all for helping me with this. When we are settled, I will do the same for anyone in the same boat.

Yes, my DS is one of the youngest in his class, born 2003 so it wouldn't be a big deal if he had to take an extra year before the CITO tests. Can you explain what you mean about the 1st October cut off please GnomedePlume? My DH visited a Dalton school in Weesp that had places a couple of weeks ago.
I am going to look now at your map Natation, thanks so much.

In England the cutoff date for deciding which year you go into is 1st September. This means that an August baby is youngest in the year in England (you will see people on MN exercising themselves about this a lot!). In NL that date is 1st October meaning that a September baby is youngest in the year. My DS was less mature and so got held back. Horses for courses!

My DD1 went from being oldest in the year 1 in UK to youngest in the year 3 in NL so effectively skipping a year. She did fine, coped fine (prima in Dutch).

Dalton is an educational philosophy where the pupil is given the tasks for the day and works out for themselves which order they want to do them (massive over simplification). Great for DD1 who has loads of self motivation, DS less so.

However it is really only a sprinkling of the philosophy, certainly the school my DCs were at didnt abandon kids who needed help to get on with stuff!

To a certain extent you wont know what is the right choice for your family until many years later!

Our choice to send DCs to state rather than international schools was not to do with fees. My employer would have paid for us to send DCs to International, British or Boarding school as part of my expat deal.

For us (and this is not commenting on other people's choices) the education the DCs had was part of the adventure. It was still part of Europe and none of the Dutch people we had met were stupid so guessed that the risk was fairly small!

By going to the local school the DCs integrated with the neighbour kids, they called for each other, went out together. We integrated because our kids went to the local school.

When asked why my Dutch was still so bad after a few years I was able to explain that my office had no Dutch people in it but my kids went to the local school so they spoke very good Dutch. This was always well received and I would be let off as I was old and stupid but we were doing the right thing by our kids!

hello, sorry I'm in an awful hurry today so haven't read the entire thread.

There may well be a happy medium between international and local schools - i.e., we have a local Dutch state school which teaches 50% (or more) of classes in English so that they children/teens are ready to go in to the big bad world speaking fluent English.

My sons will be going to state school as we want them to be friends with local children in the next street rather than the "international kids" 20 miles away. Mummy is not a taxi service!

Lots of very good advice there. I've added all the schools in Hilversum, half of Bossum, will start on Weesp this evening and see how many I can find. I've marked the schools according to Catholic/Islam/Protestant/town controlled/free control and annotated when there is a particular method Montessori/Jenaplan/Dalton and also where there is mention of part of the curriculum in English.

Hi there,
Well, I have done a whack of research and phone calls today and am getting somewhere. DH and I going to go for the local Dutch schools. I rang a couple and they were really encouraging and open. One teaches 15% of their classes through English and the other is similar. They will give the boys extra help with Dutch language also. They were happy to have English speaking kids in the school too as it would help the Dutch kid's english. I will ring a few more tomorrow around Bussum and Hilversum and then visit our preferred options in May.

After reading all your experiences and knowing the personalities of my children who are outgoing and mad to learn, I think this is a good decision. Many thanks to all of you.

O my god, Natation, just saw your last message. Fantastic.

Very best wishes for your adventure!

Some thoughts on language:

• 6 months to fluency. Our experience was that at the start progress was really slow it is exponential. It was only when DD1 hit the 5-6 month mark that she had accrued sufficient vocab to be able to substitute words and then say 'what's the word for.....'. Be very patient with your older 2 DCs at this stage and really reassure them. It will come, I promise (though we were seriously panicking at the 4 month stage!).

• keep your home language going. We spoke English at home. When out and about we would speak to the DCs in Dutch if there were other people around. We felt it was our job to keep the DCs' English going. Some people said we should speak to the DCs only in Dutch but a French friend of ours said that he did this and as a result his children couldnt speak to their French grandparents.

• Sponge Bob makes no less sense if you listen to it in Dutch!

Some thoughts on integration:

• when talking to people get into the conversation very early that you are Irish and that your DH is working for XYZ company.

• tell people that your children are attending the local rather than international school

good luck, good luck, good luck!

Thank you GnomedePlume and I love your name! Why the suggestion re: clarifying our nationality?

Haha Irishmum, to make double-sure they (a) don't think you're AMERICAN and (b) know that you are not just tourists.

Living in Holland is a very different better experience than just visiting, although I guess that is probably true of a lot of places.

Just guessing on the American thing, looking forward to Gnome's real answer!

The first impression that people will get of you is that you are foreign.

By saying that you are Irish, your husband works for XYZ Company (name the company if well known), your children do/will attend the local school you are sending out some key messages:

• You are western European
• You aren?t a benefits tourist
• You value the Dutch culture

That you are Irish will convey (national stereotyping set to maximum) far more gezilligheid than being English ever can! (You, personally, can be as miserable as sin but all those pubs cant be wrong!)

See here for an explanation of gezelligheid.
It was advice given to us at an ?Understanding the Dutch? course run by my employer. It is sound advice.

Birthday party etiquette (children)

This was our experience.

DC gets invited to a party. You interrogate your DC closely to identify suitable gift. You go to the toy shop and buy the gift. The toy shop will wrap the gift (tip ? go to a quality toy shop or department store, they will wrap the gift for you, Bart Smit tend not to do this so well!). You don?t need to buy a card.

You deliver DC and gift to the party venue at the appointed time. The gift will be opened immediately and DC will be thanked. The host will check your address and will tell you they are bringing your DC home.

At around the time the party was due to finish a car will pull up outside your house. The car will be rammed full of children (there may well be one in the glove box and a couple in the boot). Somehow your DC will be extracted and the car will leave.

A fine time will have been had by all. If the invitation hadn?t mentioned food then do not assume that your DC has been fed except for a small amount of party food.

Of course if the party is within a couple of km or so of home it will be assumed that your older DS will have cycled and will get himself home.

Funny, GnomedePlume. Checked out Gezelligheid. I like the sound of ' convivial' and 'fun'- not so sure about ' quaint' though. Are you sure you are not Irish yourself??

I hope I didnt offend, I honestly didnt meant to. Making clear that your intentions towards the Dutch nation are entirely honourable will quickly help to establish your status.

Gezelligness is important.

If you invite someone into your home and they say 'wat gezellig' then that is a real compliment.

It is really untranslateable, it is a concept. It means so many things in so many settings. You might say that an old country cottage is quaint. Equally you might say that a party is really buzzing with a great atmosphere. Gezelligheid covers both.

Perhaps it is something to do with Dutch economy, the Netherlands are very small and crowded there isnt room for extra words where a single concept covers it all.

I'm a mixture of Scottish & Yorkshire so gezelligness is not part of my cultural makeup!

Just a little thought if you go down the local schooling route in Dutch and not the English medium local "international" schools. You might find some extra-curricular activities such as Scouting or dancing classes attached to the local "international" schools in Hilversum or the private international schools in Amserdam, or even further afield in den Haag at the many private international schools there. Often these activities might be attached to the schools but in fact open to all children, not just students. When our children first moved to Brussels, they did rugby and guiding in English for the first year, everything else in French. It gave them that link with their home language, but I have to say the rugby wasn't quite so successful as our son was the only boy NOT from the international school and none of the other boys would even talk to him, but the guiding was much better as the girls came from many different schools, both English and French speaking, all the girls spoke English and that was the uniting factor. There's a few interesting links on here
www.elynx.nl/muactivites.php?Children