Moving to The Netherlands and need advice please on schools-Dutch or International?

[irishmumonthemove]

Hello,

We are moving to the Netherlands at the end of June when school is finished for the summer. My DH is already there working close to Amsterdam. We are delighted to have the opportunity to live on the Continent but at the same time we don't know the country at all and are trying to figure out nice, family friendly yet close enough to the city places to live. Also, we fluctuate between sending the children to local Dutch schools ( to enable integration with other kids and locals ) or subsidised International schools ( easier from a language point of view and maybe less stressful in the short - term ).

Does anyone live or used to live in the Netherlands? Would you send an English speaking Irish 9 yr old to a Dutch school and hope for the best? He is a clever boy ( aren't they all! ) and will see it as a challenge I think ( hope ) but I worry about how stressful it might be ( new country, language, culture). How do I find out about good Dutch schools? Should we select a school first and then a house or vice versa? We have been looking at houses on the net in Naarden, Bussum, Hilversum, Leiden, Utrecht. It's hard to decide...

PS just another thought, that mums and tots on the link in Hilversum, worth contacting the person whose email is on the link? She might know of other English speaking mums with children in local schools in the area, or in the 2 international schools in Hilversum?

Irishmum, I hope you dont mind if I keep posting random thoughts as they occur to me. I will post them here as then if something has changed since I left someone will correct me.

BTW the birthday party thing was genuine, we didnt host any parties ourselves as we didnt feel or Dutch would ever be truly up to it.

School

(from the school my lot attended and I guess fairly typical)

• No uniform (yy from an English perspective!)
• DCs came home for lunch - there was a small lunch club to which DCs went if DH was going to be out all day
• everyone but everyone cycled to school (except if they rollerskated or sledged in winter)
• from year 3 onwards DCs were expected to take themselves to and from school
• every morning from the very start the DCs went into the class and shook hands with the teacher and said 'good morning'. We loved this.

Use this version of the schools map

schools from Hilversum to Weesp

That Hilversum mums and tots group meets in the next street to Paulusschool which does English immersion and it is less than 1km from half a dozen other schools including the 2 with international curriculum.

No, please post away. I actually meant you were funny. But just used one word " funny " ( becoming Dutch already see! ) to convey my opinion. Course no offence taken - i knew what you meant. That's also why I asked if you were Irish. You have plenty of Gezellig!

Natation, you must be reading my mind. That link is helpful, thank you - particularly the Mums and Tots and the Scouts. Would love to get my boys involved. By the way, my sister in law lives in Brussels and her kids are into Scouts there. It seems really well run and very nature-oriented. Is there a similar Dutch Scouts movement do you know? I am ploughing my way thru your map and talked to more schools today in Eemnes, close to Bussum. Both have places available in September. Can't wait to visit in May and take a look.

You can search for Dutch Scouts using this link - just add the post code of one of those schools in Bussum (nice and central), set the parameter t0 20km and it should give you all the Scout groups from Weesp to Hilversum.

Dutch Scouts here

Is Eemnes not a bit isolated though, considering you will be new to the area? There is no train line, likely to be less activities for the children and a bit to far to let a 7 and 9 year old cycle into Bussum or Hilversum? We chose where we live now based on proximity to the swimming pool and school and metro stop, sounds a stupid idea but it has turned out great because the children are able to cycle, walk or take tram to just about everything, our 9 year old goes to school alone by tram sometimes (shock horror), goes to the pool with her brothers, it leaves me with more time to well have a rest after 15 years of non stop child care / school / work / sports runs!!! I would personally look at somewhere your boys can be a bit more independent and be able to cycle to activities, so you don't end up a taxi service, I'm not sure that would be so easy in a place like Eemnes which looks a bit small and cut off from the next town Laren by the motorway with no other towns in the other directions within cycling distance. Just my opinion though.

Oh here's another "boys" sports... a rugby club in Hilversum. I even found a cricket club, though not sure the Irish are any good at that sport :-)
Hilversum rugby here The Dutch are also heavily into hockey and you'll find sports there I don't think you'll find much in Ireland like korfbal and handbal.

Scouts is padvinders in Dutch, there are plenty of groups around.

I don't have much experience of primary schools over here but I teach in an International and bilingual school.

I think it's a great decision to send your DCs to local Dutch schools. I would definitely arrange extra tuitition for your oldest DS in Dutch. Expect that you and your DH will want some as well (though perhaps he already gets language support through his work). Speaking Dutch is the best way of integrating. I imagine it's harder in Noord and Zuid Holland (every time I go to Amsterdam people automatically speak English to me even of I begin in Dutch) but just stick at it and eventually people will forget you're a foreigner If began taking lessons at the local volksuniversiteit which were affordable.

As Alpinepony said, there are lots of secondary schools with bilingual (TTO) streams (I teach in a TTO school). 50% (or more) of the lower school curriculum in English. They tend to switch back to Dutch in most subjects after the first 3 years since the final exams are in Dutch. TTO is more expensive than the regular stream (Dutch secondary schools are not free!) but this usually includes lots of trips and activities.

Depending on what type of secondary school your DC go to, the curriculum can be very different to what you'd expect in the UK. My school offer VWO/HAVO/MAVO (the top 3 streams) and students do lots of languages (English, French, German, Spanish and optional Chinese in VWO) but fewer practical subjects (they do Art but no Technology at all, Drama and music are only available in the first 2 years) but obviously that can differ from school to .

I will say that the kids here are constantly tested in secondary school. Grades are averaged so every test counts (and there are a lot of them!). I also teach in the International school and it's much more like the UK system (assessment using levels) and IMO less pressured. If you do end up in the International system then DCs will still get Dutch tuition, but obviously it'll just be another subject and the rest of their lesson will be in English.

Students in NL are given much more freedom. No such thing as cover supervisors in my school. If a lesson is cancelled for the 3rd years and above, they're just goven a free period and they can go off site. 1st and 2nd years will have a teacher supervising them but there won't be any cover work set. If it's the last lesson of the day, the kids will just get sent hom early (with no notice to parents). If the first lesson is cancelled the kids get a lay-in 3rd years and above are allowed to smoke in the playground (as are teachers).

Like Gnome, lots of random thoughts about Dutchland coming to me now!

Another link which might be helpful

train and bus map

Just to clarify, the Cito eindtoets takes place during the second term in group 8 (February, over a three day period, it is a very extensive test).

It is incorrect to think that the Cito toets takes place over a two year period. Some schools take the Cito entree toets in group 7. However, in order to decide to which secondary school a child goes it is the eindtoets which matter.

The entree toets is simply part of het leerling volg systeem (which tracks pupils achievements over time). Many schools use Cito toetsen in other years as well to track achievements.

There is lots of testing in the Dutch system, but the crucial one is the Cito eindtoets. A top score will open many doors, a poor score can be very problematic. Again, I would like to stress that it is a tough test if you want to end up in the top as many Dutch parents will carefully prepare their kids for the Cito toets.

I remain of the view that you are going to ask a lot of your nine year old to settle in in a very different environment, make new friends, learn Dutch, learn new subjects and perform at his best in the Cito eindtoets. However, it is also not my experience that kids are fluent Dutch in 6 months, in my experience this takes a lot longer. There is a big difference in my view between being proficient and fluent. A proficient child is no match for a fluent child. A proficient child is not going to score as well on the taal toets and definitely not in the top, which is required to get in one of the best VWOs. A proficient child needs more time in the other tests compared with a fluent child and hence will be at a disadvantage. Even if he knows all the answers it is unlikely he will be able to show this as he is unlikely to be able to complete the full test in the allocated time.

If you really feel very strongly that you want to enrol him in a Dutch school straight away, I would at least:

• get a good private tutor for him
• explore with the school if there is any way in which they could get a dispensation for him so het gets extra time when he sits his Cito eind toets.

I teach in a UK primary school but also teach Dutch kids (who speak Dutch at home) who are returning to the Netherlands to complete their education in the Netherlands. These kids tend to be proficient, not fluent, in spite of being taught Dutch from birth and speaking Dutch at home. We do lots and lots of extra work with them to enable them to get a good result in the Cito eindtoets. So based on my experience your nine year old will have a few very tough years ahead of him. For the seven year old it should be much easier and for the younger one no problem at all.

Good luck.

Natation, you are right I suppose, would be better to be closer to a train stop for DH's work commute and the kids independence. And no, cricket's not our strong point though we are improving I believe. Still, we can't be good at everything! And our national game Hurling is the fastest in the world he he. Seriously tho, my eldest played a bit of cricket last year and enjoyed it so might re visit that.
Engelsmeisje, I think we might run screaming from the country to escape that secondary system! And not free?? What's that about? No public secondary schools? And smoking allowed too! Good God. How do I add smileys by the way?

It is really untranslateable, it is a concept. It means so many things in so many settings. You might say that an old country cottage is quaint. Equally you might say that a party is really buzzing with a great atmosphere. Gezelligheid covers both.

An old country cottage is not "gezellig" unless the people inside make it so. It's always about the atmosphere created by people. Maybe the nearest it comes to in Ireland is "having a good craic"

The Cito test need not be the be-all and end-all of your school career. Lots of my DS's friends moved up or down during the secondary school. It's also possible (if you have the ability) to do Havo (roughly O level equivalent) and then VWO (A level - uni entrance) afterwards in one year instead of two.

I have set DD1 on the case to ask about costs of state secondary schools.

Regarding language learning, while I would hesitate to disagree with a teacher our experience was different from dikkertjedap's. I think that there is a huge difference in terms of preparing for school exams between learning Dutch immersion style in a school and in the home. In school the pupil is automatically learning school vocabulary for all school subjects. This will be different from the vocabulary learned at home.

You might find a hurling team but expect it to be played by middle aged blokes harking back to their youth. Alternatively there is a lot of hockey.

My DCs played korfbal. They belonged to a local club which covered all levels. It was also great on a Saturday night to go out and support our local senior team (there was of course a bar!).

Sports were played on a Wednesday afternoon and were club rather than school based.

suburbophobe - happy to corrected about my Dutch (DCs did it all the time)!

I think you are right about the secondary schools. In many areas there are only one or two schools so of course that creates opportunity for pupils to move up or down. This is different from the English 11 plus which tends to be rather more all or nothing.

Well I suppose if a Dutch primary school doesn't work out for the 9 year old, then for secondary could he not go to the International School Hilversum secondary section? And if he gets a high enough score in the CITO, then he could do the bilingual programme there? Worth asking that school now about a possible scenario for secondary there in a couple of years time?

My eldest was 12 when he changed countries, as he had special needs, I was too nervous about putting him into another language and he stayed in English at an international school. I do regret a bit the decision, yes his oral French is probably miles better than the average UK GCSE French candidate, but it also means he is not fluent in French like his siblings. His Dutch isn't bad mind you, compared to most kids at his international school in a Dutch area, but he is still fluent in only one language and competent in 2 other languages. His siblings are fluent in 2 languages and 2 of them are also competent in Dutch. Yes it will be hard for a 9 year old, but you have to look ahead. In 3 years time, would you be happy to have a 12 year old who can speak a bit of Dutch and has spent 3 years in international school in English, with 2 younger siblings fluent in Dutch, or do you want 3 children fluent in Dutch, the 12 year old having to work a lot harder than his silblings to get to that position? Or if they go only to international school, you'll have 3 children who have only one fluent language. International schools are fantastic for children in a country 2 or 3 years, for any longer, then they can be a disadvantage.

With regards to the CITO toets, the score on this test, the assessment by the primary school and the parents own wishes and ideas together will ensure that the child ends up in the type of education best suited to him or her. So please don't worry about that.

Secondary schools are free but schools can ask for a voluntary parent contribution to cover extra curriculum activities like school trips.

Irish people say ' having the craic ' ( crack ) or ' that was great craic '.It's never and not singular as in ' having a craic '. However, deep in the countryside of say west Cork or Clare or Galway, you might hear the well-worn phrase said of the night before in the pub, " Jaysus lads, the craic was mighty last night ". I'll miss it!

Dikkerjedab, I didn't read your last post till now. It often takes me a while to post wile fielding requests from the small people here. I really appreciate your thoughts and they are scaring the bejaysus out of me. Ok, enough with Irish nonsense...

The area you are looking at (Gooi en Vechtstreken) is really nice but quite expensive and posh. Public transport is very good, both bus and train. I wouldn't go to Eemnes, there really isn't much there :)

My experience is even more than 20 y old. But agree there is/was movement between HAVO and VWO,, I knew quite a few who did HAVO, then (using 1 extra year; year 5 HAVO to year 5 VWO and then year 6 VWO)) and so ended up being able to go to Uni.
Agree Dutch sec school much broader (we HAD to do A-levels in lot more subjects). We only had to pay for renting books, no school fees as such (this includes my catholic school). State schools didn't have a very good name, at least in my town. Catholic schools were less religious than my children's school in the UK (no daily assembly of a broadly Christian ....., no weekly singing of hymes...).

Language skills/English of Dutch children not THAT fantastic but they are not afraid of trying. Same as adults.

I don't think I have ever shook hands with a teacher .

To be honest, I sometimes which I could send my children to a Dutch school. However I realise things have changed over the years....

Indeed about the expensive, Wikitravel lists Laren and Blaricum as some of the richest gemeenten in the Netherlands. Just looking on the map, I'd go for Hilversum or Bussum for somewhere even closer to work. Or even Weesp looks nice.
wikitravel.org/en/Gooi_and_Vecht_Region

Yes, I think that's the scenario I have to consider Natation. Not only would I like him to be fluent but if his siblings were fluent and he wasn't, he wouldn't be happy himself. I know him and if they are doing education through Dutch, he will want to be the same. It will be harder on him, no doubt, but we will help him however we can including extra Dutch lessons but won't pressurise him either.
Most of all, we want our children to enjoy living in a new country as much as possible and if they have friends and are happy in school, that's more than half the battle won. The bilngual option at Hilversum secondary may be an option and I will ask about that. Or as Suburbophobe said, doing the VWO after the HAVO is possible too if his Dutch impedes his CITO score. God, I'll be dreaming about these acronynms tonight.
So, I will hold my nerve and visit schools in Bussum and Hilversum in May. I'll update too when I get back. Thank you all for your contributions, you're great to be bothered. Especially to you Natation for the work on the map - it's invaluable to me.

Something you will have to get used to is your DCs correcting your Dutch. Before you know it, they will be sat in the back of the car gabbling away 19 to the dozen with their friends and you wont understand a syllable.

Except...

You will because you will have had lessons, you might not match you DCs but you will understand far more than they give you credit for.

Dont expect your DCs to provide translation:

What did he say?

Dunno, I wasnt listening

I would agree with dikkertjedap about the difference between proficient and fluent. My dcs attended French-speaking schools from the age of 3 though had a lot of English due to me being at home (so no before and after school club, summer camps etc). My dd is the only one still at school (she's 12 and in first year secondary as they go up a year later here) and I would say there is still a difference between her French and her peers. Not with her accent but she still makes mistakes (doesn't always know whether a noun is masculine or feminine fir example) and has a lack of adult vocabulary. I noticed with my ds's that this became even more of an issue the further through the school they went (when they were expected to do French literature for example). Of course the Belgian children are learning new vocab as they progress through school as well but for mine there was definitely more that they didn't know which made learning even more time-consuming than it already was (the system here sounds like the Dutch system - lots of testing, all the tests count, redoing the year if you fail, lots of homework).

Of course there is also the consideration that some children pick up languages quicker than others. Natation's children are amazing. They haven't been in Belgium that long really but her dd's speak to one another in French and not English. Mine have never done that! My French is good (came over here to work) so it's not because of that.

Didn?t mean to put you off Dutch secondary schools.

When I say they?re not free, we?re not talking the same as private schools in the UK?.my school charges a couple of hundred euros per year and the bilingual stream is more like 1000ish (if I remember correctly, should check) but then that includes more trips (usually one foreign trip). Even the International Schools are often subsidized by the Govt, especially if they?re situated in a Dutch school (like mine). Students pay to ?rent? their text books for the year but this is claimed back from the govt. However, the crisis is biting and schools are getting less money from the govt, therefore asking more from parents. One school I know requested parents pay a ?photocopy supplement? half way through the year as things were so tough, and in my school they?re trying to cut the number of teachers and increase class sizes
I love working here. In the 5 years I?ve been teaching here I have never been sworn at by a student (a daily occurrence when I was teaching in the UK) plus I get to wear jeans and trainers to school I do work in a relatively nice school though, some friends who teach in VMBO schools have had different experiences.
Regarding the cito, it?s used at different stages to assess kids (they do it during the 1st and 2nd years in my school too) but as dikkertje said, it?s the eindtoets that they do in the last year of primary school (groep 8) that matters.

Many secondary schools have a brugklas period during the first (or maybe first 2) years of secondary school where students may be in a mixed level class (VWO/HAVO or HAVO/MAVO) and then the stream they go into is decided at the end of that period. Of course, you have to get into the school in the first place.

Also agree with suburbophobe that there are always opportunities for students to move up if they have the ability.

We had a multilingual student a few years ago, one of her languages was English, but she had only just moved to the Netherlands so didn?t speak much Dutch and had not taken the cito. She was told to go to another school to learn Dutch for a year and then reapply to the bilingual stream (which she did and was accepted).

LOL Gnome your "Alternatively there is a lot of hockey" reminds me of something that happened to DH when he first moved to Amsterdam...

Standing on the 20th floor of a new office building overlooking part of Amsterdam-Zuid where there were some sports pitches and playing fields, his new Dutch colleague said "Well you're a big Canadian guy, you must play hockey!" To which DH replied with much enthusiasm "Ohhh yes indeedy! Where's the arena/rink?"

Took them a few minutes to work out that "hockey" means "field hockey" in the Netherlands (and most of Europe). Canadians never specify "ice hockey" - the "ice" bit is redundant. And for some reason, field hockey in Canada is mostly only played by girls.

'Course now that I've been in England for 9 years I say "ice hockey" if speaking to a Brit!