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Tell me about family life in Germany

57 replies

BertieBotts · 03/04/2012 20:45

Schools, in particular, I am concerned about. I know that home education is illegal there, for example, but not much about the schools/school system itself.

Plus, how easy is it to learn German? I know nothing except some vaguely remembered stuff from 2 years learning it at secondary school. Confused

Other things would be childcare, healthcare, cost of living, general attitudes towards children/family type stuff and anything else I may have forgotten.

This is all a bit hypothetical at the moment as DP has only applied for a job there, not got it yet, and even if he does me and DS might not end up going with him for a while (or at all) - if we do, then DS will be around 4 when we go. Provisional plan at the moment would possibly be to stay for a few years and by then hopefully DP is high up enough in the company to be able to request a transfer back to the UK. Of course this depends massively on circumstances. My feelings at the moment are that I'd love to spend a few years elsewhere but couldn't see myself living forever in another country.

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bugster · 03/04/2012 21:17

Don't actually live in Germany, but a couple of kilometers over the border in Switzerland, but I meet lots of Germans all the time and go over there to a company once a week to teach them German. Here it's also German speaking, we've lived here 10 years now, both DC were born here and fully bilingual. I put a lot of effort into learning German, had loads of lessons because I had time and it was important to me to become profficient as soon as possible. I am now really comfortable and can do everything in high German but my knowledge of the Swiss German dialect is still a bit shaky. I love languages though and pick them up pretty easily. My DH on the other hand is not a languages person at all but even he is very profficient in German now, although he makes a lot of grammatical mistakes.

So much for the language. As far as the school is concerned, my DCs Ren't actually in that system, they go to school here in Dwitzerland, but I have heard a lot about school from my German students, but I think most of it only applies to Baden-Württemberg, the area near us; the school system os different in every Bundesland, which one would you be in? As far as Baden is concerned school is generally from very early in the morning until about 1.00pm, then the children go home for lunch. Schools which provide lunch and have children in the afternoon, called Tageschulen, are pretty rare. Therefore it is difficult for mothers in Germany to work, and the cultural ideal is also very much to be a Hausfrau.

A 4 year old child would go to kindergarten, i think you may have to pay for that, I believe free state educTion only stars age 6, but I don't think it's v. Expensive.

I have the impression Germany is a good place to raise a child, I also like German people and culture very much, but I think it depends where exactly you would be living.

BertieBotts · 03/04/2012 21:21

I think it is in Baden-Wurttemberg, actually, so that's very helpful :) Thank you.

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BertieBotts · 03/04/2012 21:23

Karlsruhe. I'm not sure which part. It's very much early planning stages but I like to be prepared Blush

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bugster · 03/04/2012 21:34

I've not been to Karlsruhe but it isn't so fr away from us. We should travel around more in Germany but it's difficult with small children. The furthest we normally go is Freiburg, a really nice city, and the Black forest is right near us which is beautiful.

Hopefully someone who lives there and has children in school can give you some insights, but glad to be of help.

bugster · 03/04/2012 21:41

Just realised I should ahve written that I teach English not German! So m German students are German people learning English

BertieBotts · 03/04/2012 21:49

Do you know when the school intake cuts off per year? For example, DS was born in October, so he will be almost 5 when he starts school in the UK because they start the September after they turn 4.

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BertieBotts · 03/04/2012 21:55

I'm reading that there are a lot of montessori schools, which is excellent news to me! :) The nearest Montessori school here is too far away for me to get DS there.

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bugster · 03/04/2012 22:13

Not sure about cut off age, but where I live it's end of April - school starts in August and you are allowed to start kindergarten if you will be 5 by the end of April the following year. So your son would be in the middle of his school year, the oldest ones having birthdays in May, and youngest in April.

No idea how it is in Karlsruhe I'm afraid, but I'm pretty sure they normally start kindergarten around age 3 until primary school starts age 6, so your son would be kindergarten age, I suppose second year.

The nearest city to us is Basle and I think there are 5 Montessori schools there, 2 of which are bilingual English-German, which is a good way to ease a young child into another language.

There are also a lot of Rudolf Steiner schools (often called 'Waldorf Schulen' in Germany). I think the theories of Montessori and Steiner, have also had some influence on mainstream state kindergartens too, at least that's the case where I am.

Ploom · 03/04/2012 22:30

Hi Bertie! I'm in Bayern - only been here 3 years. Here the cut off date for school is 31st Sept so ds1 went to school just before he was 7 (Oct birthday) and ds2 will go to school just after his 6th birthday (august birthday). There is the possibility if your dc has an Oct, Nov or Dec birthday for them to start school if you think they are ready but its not often successful.

The school system is very different to the UK prob because they start later. They do no reading or writing at kindergarten (which all dc go to) so once they start school its full on with repetitive practice of the 3 R's. Many parents find this a bit hard going but I think it gives them a good basis. In Bayern they only have 4 years at primary school so there's no time for much else. They do religion & science but most of the morning is on the basics.
Most of the primary schools only go in the morning but there is after school care in most towns (hort). Sometimes ds1 is home at 11.45 so its not very condusive to me getting a job.

I absolutely love, love, love my life here. We live in deepest, darkest Bayern but it is an amazing place to bring up a family. My 5 year old walked down the road to his friends house this afternoon & came back alone. Something i'd never have dreamed of in th UK.

The language isnt the hardest to learn. In a big place like Karlsruhe there will be language courses available & often in the morning. I'm not fluent but well able to deal with the day-day things i.e appts, workmen, school etc.

I cant recommend life here highly enough! Hope your dh gets the job.

BertieBotts · 04/04/2012 17:33

Thanks Ploom - and bugster :)

I'm not worried about the later start because my gut feeling is that this is better for DCs anyway. Nice to know that the school year cut off is roughly the same. Is it considered bad if DCs can already read/write when they get to school? I'm not into pushing things on children before they are ready, but DS is already asking me what letters are etc and trying to write them, so I would be surprised if he doesn't almost teach himself over the next few years anyway. Do you know much about Montessori schools? I know about the ideology from looking them up here, it seems they are much more common in Germany.

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thequietone · 04/04/2012 17:45

I lived in a small town near Munich for 3 years until October 2010. Well, I'm back in the UK now.

I desperately missed England and spent the last year in Germany utterly depressed. I lived in a beautiful, safe, clean place, and learned the language very well, having weekly lessons and throwing myself into German Life. But, it wasn't enough. We gave it a good shot, and in truth, knew it was going to be temporary, but I know my husband wished he was still out there, despite making no effort to learn German or speak to Germans (he worked for an international company).

DS1 went to Kindergarten from 3-5yo. He was the only English speaker there, and after 2 hard months, it finally clicked and he was bilingual by the time he left. DS2 was born out there, and has fond memories, even though he was only 2 when we left! The Kindergarten was so cheap, but the quality of teachiing was marvellous. I was surprised how tolerant they were of bullying, though.

It's a mixed bag of feelings I have of my time out there. I look bag at pictures and KNOW it was good for 2 1/2 years, but I have yet to come to terms with my anger with the place. People just didn't want to be my friend.

bugster · 05/04/2012 09:33

Hi again Bertie

In answer to your question about reading - again can only really speak for German speaking Switzerland but have the feeling the stance is pretty much the same - it is not really encouraged to develop reading skills before school age. There are some children who pick bits of it up by themselves, but I don't really think they are then at any advantage after a few months of school. It took me a really long time to get my head around waiting to teach chi,dren to read until they are 6/7, having started school, reading etc when I was barely 4, but having seen my oder DD's development through kindergarten and the first year of school, I am converted to this way of doing it. My DD was also interested in letters at age 4, I think partly because in England there are many toys and things to interest very young children in letters and we had received lots as presents. She could print her name by thhe time she started kindergarten aged 4 and a half, and so could a lot of the other kids. But they didn't develop their reading/writing/ numeracy beyond that in the 2 years of kindergarten. I was totally hirrified at first, thought surely hey will teach the children to read, and asked the kindergarten teacher, and she told me that if a child asked her a question about letters etc she would answer it, but that she was actually expressly forbidden to initiate reading activities. It is considered too early and potentially harmful. I think this is a bit the influence of Steiner and possibly Montessori? (that was normal state kindergarten though).

So anyway I thought I'll just go with it, so long as DD is happy etc which she certainly was, and in fact while they do some activities as young children which are meant to develop pre-reading and writing skills, the main emphasis is on the child developing social skills, being able to negotiate, compromise, express their feelings, find their role and identity in part of a group etc. I don't know if that stuff is so much a part of the aims for 4 and 5 year olds in the UK, I don't think it was for me. Anyway, it was fantastic for my daughter. She started out pretty shy and sensitive, and really learned to assert herself and become integrated. Her enthusiasm for letters which she had immediately before kindergarten, around your son's age, waned and if ever I asked her if she wanted to learn about them, she said 'no, I'm only in kindergarten, I'll do that when I go to school'. This made me slightly uneasy but now she is in her first year of school and it's very different from kindergarten, much more structured but she is doing really well. She can already read pretty much everything in German and ready simple books, albeit quite slowly, and she is now teaching herself to read English as well. Maths is also coming along really well. (can you tell I'm proud of her?!)

My younger DD will start kindergarten in August and is not so interested in letters although she knows a few, but boy am I glad as far as she's concerned that we're not in the U.K. Where she'd have to start school in Deptember aged 4 and a half - I know it would really be too much for her.

Sorry to be so long and rambling!

bugster · 05/04/2012 09:45

Sorry about so many typos! The quietone your post was interesting, it's ashame the people were unfriendly to you. How is it for you in Bayern Ploom, are the people friendly to you?

I think missing my good, old friends was and is one of the hardest things for me - but with time you get used to a different culture and a different 'friendship style' if that's the right way to put it. Here the people are quite reserved and don't really express opinions loudly, I think they have a mistust of those who do that. I'm lucky enough to have a lot of good neighbours and young families around, and there are people I can have a good chat to, also they are very willing to put themselves out for you if you need help.

ArtVandelay · 05/04/2012 13:01

Bayern is funny! I've met some absolute horror people here - racist, rude, erm..mad! But most people are really nice and you meet awful people everywhere its just that when you are new and and perhaps haven't many friends you can find it harder to shake off. Thequietone - I'm sorry you feel that way. I've had a couple of incidents with nasty people that left me shaking with rage so I know how it can get to you. My friend who is black gets a lot of stupid, ignorant comments about her hair and living in Africa (she's from US) or even people wanting to touch her Shock that sort of oldfashioned stupid racism really shocked me at first, certainly Bayern is not very PC.

Karlsruhe has a few big international companies so I expect it will be fairly easy to access German lessons and other auslanders. I would say to try and live city centre and then when you meet people its really easy to go for a coffee or find a playgroup or go out for a few wines and you don't have a massive organise to get to places. WRT play groups you often find that Churchs have play centres or groups that you can book or drop into. The Protestants charge me 40? for 10 weeks or I can drop-in with the Catholics for 1? per session! Kindergarten and Kinderkrippe does seem to be a lot cheaper than in the UK but there are no tax credits or free mornings. My CB is 160? per month if youre interested!

If you are planning to just have a few years, I would say why on earth not! My experience so far (3 years) is pretty good, I want for nothing really and a lot of things are actually a bit better than the UK.

Ploom · 05/04/2012 20:18

I find life in Bayern just great. We live in a tiny village (

Zoonose · 06/04/2012 21:11

Just wanted to say hello Bertie as my DH has also applied for a job in Baden-Wurttemberg, within his company. We have DC aged 2 and 4. I am excited and scared by the prospect. I have not been to Germany though from what I have read and heard second hand it sounds very positive. I think it will come down to whether I miss family too much, and whether I can keep in touch with them enough. I am close to all of my family. I am looking at it that if he does get it, then we can try it for a couple of years and if it really doesn't work out despite best efforts, then at least we won't have the regret of not having tried it, IYSWIM. Good to know there may be another MNer nearby if we do go out there! Smile

BertieBotts · 08/04/2012 18:51

That would be good Zoonose! MN expats in germany meet up Grin

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BertieBotts · 08/04/2012 19:00

What do you do about "stuff" if you plan to be away for a few years? Obviously you can't really take furniture etc. Did you sell it or put it into storage? How much stuff did you take out of your other possessions?

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DarrowbyEightFive · 08/04/2012 19:27

Hi Bertie,

If you're planning on moving to B-W you really need to talk to someone in the same state, as education differs enormously between the different states. Quite apart from anything else, they all have different school holidays! And the cut off point in Berlin is December 31st, so don't rely on it being the same in B-W as in Bavaria.

DD2 went to a Montessori nursery for nearly 4 years and benefited greatly from it, but it was an English-German institution and hence hardly typical for Germany as a whole. DD2 did do some practice with letters when she was 4/5 and knew her numbers up to 100, but there was no conscious program or expectation of what kids should achieve at a certain age. The Montessori junior school near us has a very good reputation, and I would certainly trust it rather than a Steiner (Waldorf) school, which are totally off the wall.

I'm afraid I hate the German education system right now, but that's probably influenced by the catastrophe that is education in Berlin. This is what I wrote on the recent thread about other educational systems:

"I hate hate hate the German school system, but I suppose in some ways the standards are very 'high', in a very restrictive academic sense.

The state school system is incredibly elitist, with very few comprehensive schools. Everyone else is divided after year 4 (age of 10) into one of three schools - grammar schools, 'Realschulen' and 'Hauptschulen' according to their grades in years 3 and 4. The grammar school is effectively for the children of professionals, the Realschule prepares people for skilled manual work, and the Hauptschule focuses on ensuring people can read and write enough to become labourers or shop assistants. Of course after only 4 years of school the place they end up at is largely reflected by their own parents' level of education.

The school system is largely based on continual tests and assessment rather than actual learning. Grades are everything and kids soon become disillusioned with actually learning content and are simply out to get the best grades - whether they learn anything along the way is irrelevant.

However, DD1 (13) is now in year 8 at a grammar school and I think the actual level of what she is learning is incredible - far more analysis than was expected of us at the same age. She's given a topic - diabetes, Copernicus, Beirut - and expected to produce a fully researched analysis plus competent Powerpoint presentation to the class. I think what she's doing is at a higher level than I had at O-level, perhaps because the school is so academically selective.

The downside is that it's incredibly stressful for the kids, and there's no alternative home schooling (illegal). DD1 has been suffering psychosomatic stomach and headaches, other friends have other stress-based illnesses. The grammar schools have the attitude, 'if you can't deal with it just get out', but obviously the other schools don't prepare kids for university in the same way (and DD1 is pretty academically competent and would get bored elsewhere). So I feel German schools have a very weird, traditional and inappropriate way of defining intelligence and academic success - it's designed to exclude people rather than include them.

The good thing is that the schools only start at 5.6 to 6 years, which gives more time to relax at nursery. In Berlin the last year of nursery before school is now free of charge (sponsored by the state), so everyone can send their child, and get prepared for school. However, very few nurseries teach letters or numbers, so if you don't do that at home your child will be disadvantaged from the start.

And - this is worst of all - the schools start at 7.55 every morning. Surely that's against the Human Rights Convention!"

Healthcare - generally expensive but excellent - way above the NHS average standard. Your DH will be insured via his employer (the employer pays half the insurance and your DH the other half, which is silly because effectively it all comes directly out of his salary). Assuming that you won't be working, or only working very little, you will insured free of charge (Familienversicherung), and your DC too.You each get a little credit card thing and take that to the doctor or dentist. You do however have to pay 10 euros per quarter if you go to the doctor - this is designed to prevent people going along for every little thing, which the Germans tend to do. Your DC will be seen by a paediatrician, and you can go directly to a specialist without a GP recommendation.

German - difficult at the beginning but gets easier later on. You just need to persevere with the grammar (gender and cases) at the start.

You might find extra information at a website for expats called toytown. I think there's a local section for B-W or perhaps even Karlsruhe. There's also the 'Land und Leute' section of Leo, where you will come face to face (as it were) with German abruptness very quickly.

All the best with the move!

Ploom · 08/04/2012 19:55

Wow that is a really negative view you've posted there. Just what someone needs to hear before they move to a foreign country! As you said you cant directly compare Bayern & B.W but you def cant compare a large metropolitan city like Berlin to B.W.

I dont find the attitude "get on with it or get out" at the Gymnasium here at all. There is a lot of additional support in the school to help the dc learn & yes there is a focus on grades but I dont find its to the detriment of my dd's learning.
I asked my dd recently how she feels about being at the Gymnasium - her answer - I love it! And she wasnt just saying that to please me - she's not that kind of child. She also loves that the other dc there (not all are dc of professionals) also want to learn & the ones who have no interest in academic subjects are in a different school now. I agree that the assessment of which school they go to is done at too young an age but i'm sure there are moves in Berlin to change that so it may filter down to rural Bayern or B.W. eventually.

BertieBotts · 08/04/2012 20:12

TBH, the attitude at secondary level bothers me less because it's likely we'll either be back in the UK or somewhere else by the time we get there. And if we do choose to stay, we'll have plenty of time to make that decision and talk with other locals, see the schools etc. Thank you though - I would prefer to hear about the problems people have had as well, rather than a perfect rose tinted view. :)

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HopeForTheBest · 08/04/2012 20:41

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on request of its author.

BertieBotts · 08/04/2012 20:47

What kinds of things are the goals, Hope, if you know offhand? I liked what bugster said about the different focus of early education to the english focus which seems more about skills, reading, writing counting and learning to sit still and follow instructions.

I'm guessing that most people have health insurance of some sort. Is this easy to arrange and organise? How does it work? I have only ever lived in the UK so only familiar with how the NHS works.

Am also idly curious about the attitude to pregnancy/childbirth/early parenting (e.g. breastfeeding support) too - though it's unlikely we would have another child while there, it's a possibility of course. It's probably not something which would sway the decision, but it would be nice to be prepared in the event!

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Ploom · 08/04/2012 21:47

Sorry you'll only get the rose tinted view from me - I love life here & dont plan to go back to the UK!

I was with my SIL the last few days - her baby is only 7 months and she couldnt rate the antenatal & postatal care enough. Antenatal is normally at the gynae for each appt & afterwards the same midwife comes each time to the house so you get a famtastic continuity of care.
But....I've heard the birth can be quite medicalised. No G&A, often an epidural but on a possible plus side you are encouraged to stay in the hosp a bit longer in a single or double room to rest after the baby is born. If it was your 3rd or 4th dc, the health insurance will even pay for you to have help at home for the first couple of weeks.

Health Insurance is organised thro work so someone would go thro it with your dh when he started. It is a much better organised system. Love the possibility to see a specialist if you need to.

Come over and join our German/Austrian thread - there's lots of us on MN!

Caterpillar2001 · 08/04/2012 23:47

As someone who will be moving to Berlin soon I would like to correct a few things:

  1. For Berlin the general rule is that the duration of primary school is 6 years whereafter the children are separated. However, parents do have the possibility to send their children to a so-called grundständiges Gymnasium (of which there are not many) that also have classes starting as from year 5. For this the children need to have a recommendation from the primary school, which would usually be based on very good or good grades and a suitable level of maturity, and pass an exam at the Gymnasium. Nevertheless, only a small percentage of children move on to such a Gymnasium after year 4, the others only change after year 6.
  2. As of August 1 this year all three Kindergarten years, i.e. as from age 3 are free in BERLIN. Yes, that is correct, FREE! Parents only need to pay a small fee for food.