One more moving to Brussels :)

[ShutterNutter]

Hi everyone! Found this site a few days ago and I see that some of you live in Belgium :-)

My husband has been transferred to Brussels for 3 years, which is great and we are looking to move early next year. We have 2 little girls 5 & 6 .
We have been in Brussels for 8 days now school & house hunting. I tell you it has not been easy. We just can't decide were to live. After looking at quite a few houses we have come down to two.

The first house we are deciding on is in Ixelles near all the shops, it has no garden (not even a little patch) and no parking which is a bit of a pain driving round and round trying to find one after a long day of work. On the plus side the house is near Tenbosch Park and another big play ground that I can easily walk the girls to, also all the restaurants and shops.

House number 2 is in Watermal-Boitsfort, it is bigger and newly renovated, plenty of parking but the nearest shop (which is 2 supermarkets) is 1.5km away. Not crazy far, but far enough not to make the area very exciting or have anything fun to walk to.
One of the things that appeal to me coming to Europe is the fact that you don't have to get into your car just to get milk. I really enjoy walking and was looking forward to be able to walk to the corner store to get milk or whatever. Also living in a quaint, pretty european style street is very appealing.
DH understandably wants it to be an easy commute to work (Auderghem) and back and to the girl's school (we are deciding between BEPS and ISB) and the Watermal house would certainly provide that. It also has a garden for the girls. The downside is that this house is just surrounded by big offices and buildings and some embassies.

So, after all that rambling ... having lived in Brussels for a while, would you go for the more lively location and walkable locations, but smaller house and no garden, or the bigger house with a garden but not very exciting surroundings but closer to work and schools?

I probably won't have car for the first 6 moths or so but will probably get one later. DH will have car and will be traveling quite a bit with his job. I'll be a stay-at-home mom.

Thanks for any input!!

Signed, indecisive Crazy Rambler ;-)

Unfortunately you would have one child in primary and one in secondary to start with, you could choose a school with primary and secondary sections, but it does then roughly half your choices of schools.

Remember even in north and west Brussels, Dutch is a minority language, for the best immersion in Dutch, you'd be better still moving into Vlaams Brabant or Antwerp provinces, Tervuren, Hoeillart, Zaventem, Vilvoorde, Mechelen etc.

Generally speaking Dutch is easier to start with if an anglophone with no prior knowledge of French. Dutch has a grammar closer to English. But French shares a huge amount of vocabulary with English too, thanks to Latin / Norman French word borrowings. Some people are more comfortable in French, some in Dutch. Our family is a classic example, I'm definitely more comfortable in French, hubby in Dutch, given he is pretty fluent also in German, his French is pants. It's hard to judge which one your boys might take to better, without trying both languages out.

hi Amicrazy,

Could I just add another thought here? Since you aren't planning to move here until 2012, you have time for your children to start learning a language (although it will never be the same as going to school in the language). I don't know what after-school language classes are in the UK (if that's where you are currently) but if you could come here for a few weeks in the holidays, you could send them to intensive language classes here. I know that there are residential courses available as well as day camps. If the idea appeals, let me know and I'll find out more details. You could also let them try out both languages, although I have to think that it would be easier to follow up with French than Dutch whilst living elsewhere.

I agree with natation that some people suit some languages better than others. I took French and German to the same level at school but didn't retain any of the German at all.

Difficult one re which language would be easier. Like natation's family, French is my second language but Dutch is dh's second language. For that reason (as I knew it would be me following them) we chose French. I would chose Dutch given the chance again but I'm only basing that on my experience with the French system (and friends in the same school) versus hearsay from friends and family in the Dutch system. The Dutch schools have a better reputation than the French schools where language teaching is concerned (so you're right in thinking your dcs would pick French up anyway). I also think the Flemish mentality is slightly closer to that of the British mentality (going on my friends versus my sil's friends). A different experience may have led me to think differently.

I do have a friend who could no longer afford the fees of the British School so moved her ds to a Dutch school with a high standard. They were brilliant with him and although he didn't do wonderfully in his first year (third year primary), they didn't fail him and let him catch up at his own pace. He's doing much better this year. Because the intake year is the calendar year here and his birthday is November he's actually skipped a year! I know that he would have been made to repeat in my dd's school but that may be just the school rather than the system.

It's funny that Ixelles and Uccle are very popular for those relocating here. I lived in Ixelles when I first came here and wouldn't want to live there now. Parking is an absolute nightmare and it's so busy!! Both Uccle and Ixelles are expensive. I live in Audergham but would have no problem living in some of the Flemish communes. See if you can get a house in Portofino's road - it's great! Don't go to the west of Brussels, seriously! How about the communes à facilités of Kraainem or Wezembeek-Oppem? If not, there are Dutch speaking schools in certainly most, if not all, of the communes!

Here's a website for finding French-speaking schools here, a list of Flemish secondary schools here (and a list of Flemish primary schools here though these don't appear to include the Catholic ones which have more primary and secondary together I think).

It's true that your boys are not at the easiest ages to move but looking into language classes seems an excellent idea. Mind you I guess that would be easier in French.

If I think of anything else I'll pop back.

Thanks Natation, Pfaffingabout, LongtimeinBrussels

Indeed I have started to think more seriously about the language and schools issue. I speak conversational French, as well as Greek and Spanish. We also have a summer house in the South of France which the boys love - in fact, just this last week, we've decided to have a class together at home as they have French friends they want to be able to communicate better with on hols. So, our home environment has always been lingo-friendly. Good idea about a residential Pfaffingabout - I'll take you up on that, thanks - post the websites and I'll look into them. My new partner is Flemish but also French-fluent. Myself, I'm more attracted to French but I hear what you're saying about the potential benefits of the Dutch schools. It's a hard call; however, I have got time to explore it further.

Re Ixelles/Uccle, I just like the houses there! But I am beginning to get the picture - they sound a bit crammed, even noisy perhaps, and busy .. dirty??!! So, thanks a million for your other suggestions - there's nothing to beat suggestions from people who know the lie of the land.

I'm planning on coming over the beginning of April (4th -6th) if any of you were around for a coffee/drink (on me) that would be great.

Thanks again.

I was off to look for 'Portofino's road' thinking, that's odd, the spelling, then wondered if it was someone's name - so where does Portofino live then?

Another thought before I leave for work ..

My initial thinking was to put them into St. Johns in Waterloo IF I could negotiate a substantial reduction in the fees. I contacted the school and they said that usually a 25% discount was the max. Does anyone know any more about this? Since I would be paying privately, this seems crazy (hence the name ).

However, I could just about manage (aargh).. would be living in an apartment instead! Now that I have started to explore other avenues, wouldn't rule this out either, especially given the language challenges for their age group. Also, I was educated myself by the FCJ's (though I know they don't run it any more) and my two would just LOVE the sports and performing arts .. would it be worth it for them I wonder? A more attractive option? Not looking for answers folks rather happy to hear all views, good bad or indifferent.

Berchem-St-Agathe is supposed to be a nice(er) place to live in west of Brussels, it's a small commune with a still Dutch speaking population. Never been there myself. The communes in west Brussels which are perhaps a tad less desirable are Molenbeek-St-Jean and Anderlecht, but in fact you get wonderful art-deco housing in this area, it still would not make me positive about living over there.

Ixelles and Uccle vary from very cramped rows of townhouses and cosmopolitan living(that's not in a negative way though) in the northern end of these communes where parking is a nightmare, to suburbia with chateaux and parks for gardens in the southern end.

On the Flemish schools website, the Catholic schools are indeed all there, they are often listed not under their names "Saint XXX" but as "vrie school XXX". The communal ones are listed as "geementelijke school XXX" and the direct Flemish government funded ones are "XXX van het gemeenschaponderwijs".

If you really want your boys in the same school in Dutch, here's a few suggestions :

Rudolph Steiner School in Anderlecht - it's
on the edge of the commune on the CERIA campus, not the best location if you want to be in the city but at least on a metro line, they have just started secondary age there, as Steiner is an alternative educational approach, they might be very welcoming of newcomers

Koninklijk Atheneum in Etterbeek (known as KAE)

Koninklijk Athenuem in Tervuren (known as KAT)

Heilig Hart College in Wezembeek-Oppem (almost Tervuren and near the tram)

St Jozefs in Woluwe St Pierre (but many French speakers)

Mater Dei in Woluwe St Pierre (again many French speakers)

Some links to French language residential holidays are here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/living_overseas/1084462-Colonies-de-vacances-for-UK-based-child-Frakkinstein-Bonsoir-AuldAlliance-et-Cie

St John's is only worth it if you have a spare 40K per year to spend - that's with the 25% reduction IF they give you the reduction, international schools often don't here for new students. They will not pick up much French there at all, not from the school anyway. St John's is not in Brussels either. ISB is in Brussels, BSB in Tervuren, International Montessori in St Stevens Woluwe just north of Brussels, WIS/BEPS in Braine l'Alleud near Waterloo. These are all the English medium schools in the greater Brussels areas with secondary sections.

Wee correction, WIS is in Rhode Sr Genese and not Braine l'Alleud, anyway, between Uccle and Waterloo on the main road.

amIcrazy, I live in Zaventem - on the border with Sterrebeek. It is just outside Brussels in the Dutch speaking bit Dd goes to a french speaking primary in Evere though.

Hi Portofino, natation

First thing - changed my name from amIcrazyorwhat to something much more positive; reflects the progress I have made in the last week mainly thanks to your generous postings here. They have really helped me to get my head into some of this stuff. As a result, I emailed an inquiry to Le Verseau yesterday and had a great call with the Vice Principal this morning. Have looked at the school and like the approach. We discussed in detail how I would go about getting my two in and she recommended the younger guy doing a year in the British School so that he could then transition smoothly into LV. I think this is a strong option. Any thoughts?

Catalyst, the vice principal at Le Verseau is a great source of advice, make good use of her! I think she probably said that because le Veseau does not accept children into 5e or 6e primaire there without French, because of the difficulty in getting them up to fluency to take the CEB. However they DO accept into the secondary section without French IF you are coming from abroad or if coming from an a recognised international school in Belgium, that's why she would have recommended a year at an international school, if your youngest son does 6e primaire in a Belgian school (that's the year he'd be in September 2012, Belgian schools do a year more of primary) and does not pass the CEB, he cannot go to Le Verseau 1ere secondiare, but if he went for a year in 1st secondary at an international school, he can then transfer to 1ere secondaire at le Verseau.

Your cheapest international secondary if self-funding would be International Montessori in St Stevens Woluwe, it would set you back around 14k per year there for 1st secondary. The school is very small, currently 28 children aged between 11 and 16 years old. BSB in Tervuren, if you could get the school to give you the maximum 30% reduction if self-funding, would be around 19k per year.

With your younger one, you could go down the option of putting him back a year at a Belgian primaire, going into 5e primaire and giving him 2 years to get through the CEB. Le Verseau, as I said, would not accept him into 5e primaire, but most other local Belgian schools would, the communal and French directly funded schools would be obliged to accept your son, it's only the "free" schools like Le Verseau which are not obliged to accept children.

With your older one, he would be in 2e secondaire in a Belgian school, it would be hard but not impossilble to get a place at a French secondaire. It's maybe worth looking into Ecole Décroly, as it is a "method" school using a different pedagogy to mainstream local schools, it has both primaire and secondaire sections, including significantly as 1ere secondaire class for those children who fail or do not have the CEB from 6e primaire. It is however and immensely popular school. It is in Uccle. There are 4 other "method" schools in the area, Hamaide, Plein Air, Nos Enfants and En Couleurs. All are popular.

If you were serious about Le Verseau, I'd recommend looking at the route between Brussels and Wavre for somewhere to live. There's a school bus which meets the local buses at Wavre train station, that's the only way of getting to the school without driving there. Many of the parents car share to the school from the Brussels area. I personally wouldn't live in Uccle or Ixelles if planning to travel by car to Wavre every day, I'd live somewhere along the road E411? I think it is between Auderghem and Wavre, perhaps even as far out as La Hulpe or Rixensart. To me there is one MAJOR disadvantage of Le Verseau and that is its location. I'm a city dweller, or a a suburb dweller of a large city. Wavre is like the other side of the world to me. I HATE driving, I immediately discounted it when moving for that reason.

And the E411 is like a car park between Overijse and Brussels every day in the rush hour. If you want to live somewhere in that direction, move near to a train station! Rixensart is lovely.

The E411 runs along the bottom of my garden and when I go to catch the metro in the morning (the station is raised above the slip road) there are cars as far as the eye can see. A friend who lives near had her daughter in Le Verseau. It was okay dropping her off for the most part as you're going against the traffic but coming back it was a nightmare so I agree with Porto on that one. Genval's another possibility.

I would have suggested Decroly and similar schools (as I did further up this thread) but they are very difficult to get into. I would have said the same about Le Verseau though and what the vice principal has said sounds encouraging. In secondary they follow the Belgian system more closer than I think they do in primary so it might be a more rigid approach than you're used to but it's a very popular school with anglophones.

Catalyst - move to an area you like & send your kids to the local school. Ask the school if they have help in language - lots do as there are many families who don't have one of the three official languages spoken at home.

The ceb isn't so tough. The pass mark is 50%. Check out the past exams

Don't know why the Le Verseau school wont accept a child for 5/6th primary. If it's about learning french then why would they say go to an expat english speaking school? If it's on failing the ceb then I'd be asking the school how is it possible that they can't get a child ready for this exam after 1 or 2 school years there. Many kids in state local schools will be starting 5/6th primary in a language they don't know and they will be able to pass the end of primary exam.

All of the brussels ring is one huge traffic jam, as is the city centre, so you'd want to avoid any form of car travel in the morning rush hours which start at about 7am until 10am.

This looks interesting for greek language & culture www.enseignement.be/index.php?page=24435

The system for those who don't know french language & are starting in state schools www.enseignement.be/index.php?page=23677

Check out the list of schools who offer this www.enseignement.be/index.php?page=23678&navi=894

Wouldn't worry on getting into a school. The system at the moment is you list your schools by preference. I do think you'd need to be registered with a local commune when you can apply - but there might be a way round this. The few schools that are over sunscribed are so because historically they were the good schools. Now imho it's all sort of the same. For secondary see how much of the school is following the general course which is the academic path - if this is what you want. There are also technical options that can be chosen instead of latin/greek/additional maths/. Some schools do both general & technical and others just one of the two.

Time for a

I think frazzlenz put her older primary school age children into a french speaking school in WSP. I think they have got on OK.....

The link for non french speaking & starting in french language schools isn't the right one. It's still useful to know schools help those in need and could be good to contact these schools & ask about what they could offer you.

The Primo-arrivants classes are for asylum seekers, recognised refugees and nationals of developing worlf countries, I was rather making the assumption that Catalyst wasn't going to be in any of those categories, but I may be wrong.

You do not need to be registered in Belgium to apply for either primaire or secondaire, or even have address. I know someone applying currently for 1st secondaire from abroad. We enrolled our children into maternelle and primaire when still living abroad. They of course do need to be registered and have a Belgium address, by the time they actually start at school though. All secondaires, apart from Le Verseau, follow the same curriculum for 28 "hours" in in 1ere and 2e secondaire, with 4 "hours" at the choice of each individual school. It's in the last 4 years of secondaire that the academic / technical / professional split happens. Secondaries differ ENORMOUSLY, even with this common curriculum in the first 2 years. There's a central application system for entry into 1ere secondaire where you choose a 1st preference school and up to 9 other choices in order, but for the other 5 secondaire years, enrolments are handled by individual schools.

I have to disagree, for a 10/11 year old arriving as a monolingual English child in a French school, passing the CEB can be terribly tough, especially the history/geography/science papers which require alot of writing and comprehension, more so than the French papers. Our child managed to pass CEB and made me very proud to score 10% higher than national average in French and Maths, but it was a combination of his effort, the fact that I was able to help him with his homework and the BEST teacher I have ever come across. I still sometimes don't quite believe our child managed it, given the memories of a very honest conversation I had with the teacher 4 months into schooling in French. Sure for a child educated in French for primaire years, even one for whom French is a 2nd or 3rd language, the CEB should be easy peasy to pass. But for someone with less than 2 year of French starting in 5e primaire to the end of 6e primaire, it is possible but will take quite some determination.

My guess is that Le Verseau will not take a non French speaker in 5e/6e primaire because of the extra difficulty involved in getting through CEB and also perhaps because they want to keep a 100% or near 100% pass rate?? The only reason for the recommendation to go one year into an English school instead of 6e primaire at another Belgian school then transfer to Le Verseau for 1ere secondaire, is that the school CANNOT accept a child without CEB who has been to a Belgian school which is a possibility, but it CAN accept a child into 1ere secondaire without CEB if coming from abroad or from an international school in Belgium (which the French community recognise as being effectively abroad). That's the rules of the French community.

Nat - the link is the wrong one. There is something to help those who don't have french though.

Le versaus policy does seem odd and what a hassle to have to trek outside bruxelles and then also go to the british school in Tervuren. This is a joke surely!

Can somebody explain more about all these exams that the children have to take.
For what I understand they have exams starting in their 2nd year. What can they possibly test so early? And what is it tested in the CEB? It seems weird that they have a test in their 6th year but they don't have a final examination at the end of secondary school Right? I mean they don't have anything like the french baccalaureate (how do you even spell that?).

External exams are in 2e, 5e and 6e primaire. Schools often have their own exams which could even been twice a year. It's up to individual schools how they evaluate their children, our children's school is quite liberal, has continuous assessement and have green/amber/red along with percentages. We don't get told where in the class the child is. The Catholic schools can do non obligatory assessements at 2e and 4e.

enseignement.catholique.be/segec/index.php?id=1140

By the time our children leave secondaire, there might indeed be a bac system. CEB has only be obligatory since 2008? I think. There are now obligatory exams at the end of 2e secondaire. Who knows.

The CEB link is already published, take a look at the papers.

Le Verseau is not saying you HAVE to go to BSB, just because of the rule allowing children to come from abroad without CEB to enter secondaire but not those from a Belgian school, to avoid possible failure in 6e primaire of a child with only just joining the Belgian system in 6e primaire, spending a year at an international school gets around the rule.

I can only speak from limited experience of children at school's in our local area, but our school has a large number of non francophones and gets "polyvalent" teacher who takes children out of classes in primaire to help the non francophones, another school nearby with also a loarge number of non francophones just lumps the children with those having difficulties with French who are first language French.