Daughter claiming she’s trans

[BizarroSeamonsters]

Hi all,

My daughter, almost 12, is claiming for the second time to be trans. First time was shortly after hitting puberty (which came, for her, upsettingly early around the time of her 10th birthday). This was just after the first lockdown, and she was estranged from so many of her school friends, and ultimately found the situation so distressing that she reverted to home schooling after a while. I should say she’d identified as gay prior to this.

Around the time this occurred, I blocked certain online materials (I found messages from suspiciously adult sounding ‘friends’ on a popular kids gaming platform addressing her by a male name) and, after some heart to heart conversations, she desisted. She then gradually cycled through the boyish clothing and back to dresses and wanting to be addressed as a girl etc - I should state that I’ve tried to impress upon her that a woman can wear and present outwardly however she damn well pleases.

This remained the case until the early part of this year, when she was allowed a greater degree of online access. Her mother and I separated last year so this is not something I can police to anything like the extent I might like. Lo and behold, within a month or so she’d switched back to they / them and then, more recently, he / him, with the male name resurgent.

I wish I knew how to address this. Her mother was, in fact, relatively gender critical before me but seems so loathe to compromise our daughter’s happiness in the moment that she is just letting her be; she’ll allow her to talk to her non-binary friend and have a trans flag while still referring to her as she much of the time, but I know there’s a fine line between passivity and absolute affirmation. We both, thankfully, agree that there can be absolutely no medication until she’s 18.

I’m really struck by the social contagion aspect of this - the fact it started almost immediately alongside puberty and at a time she dove deeper into online communities is, to me, a red flag. Yet, as I say, I’m at a loss. I realise it would be counterproductive to charge in like a bull in a china shop, but I’m so worried. She’s due to be going back to school from September and I’m concerned she’ll insist on being addressed as male there. I know there’s not much one can do to stop that now and I suppose the very different social dynamic of a small-town school might turn out to be something that disabuses her of the notion after a while.

Any advice would be most gratefully received.

I was so miserable as a teenager, scared of life changing, responsibility, terrible OCD. Started when I was 12 and took me until my early 20s until I would say I was on an even keel. Just don’t let her do anything to herself that she can’t row back from. Have one teenager who seems to “suit” teenage life and one who doesn’t but she does seem to believe me when I tell her that things will get better.

Of course you exist, don't be ridiculous.
I just want to know what exactly it is that makes you believe you are not a woman?

If you think you are not a woman then you are assuming that all other women must 'feel' or behave a certain way which somehow separates you from them.

No one has ever given a coherent answer to what 'non binary' actually is without referring to stereotypes.

You all clearly have no idea what gender is. When people talk about gender identity, they're talking about an internal sense of self. It's a psychological phenomenon.
Most people here don't even try to learn about trans issues. They just assume they're right.

Is that right? My DD has non-binary friends at school. I didn’t know anyone who said they were non-binary at school but her NB friends seem to feel the same as I did that that age. I can’t see what the difference is other than language.

You could ask some people over at reddit, on asktransgender. Maybe some of those NB kids will grow out of it. Who cares, pronouns aren't permanent. Nor is social transition.

You should read what the Cass interim report says about "social transition", OP.

www.transgendertrend.com/cass-review-interim-report/

@Iambecomethequeen Most of the history of psychology entirely disagrees that there is such a thing as “gender identity” as “an innate sense of self”. It’s been regarded by most psychological traditions as an external thing; the social performance of “sex roles”.

What is the evidence that it actually exists?
Is “gender identity” akin to “national identity”? Or “racial identity”? Or “cultural identity”? Or “sexual identity”? Are these all similar psychological phenomena? If not, why not? What evidence is there that “gender identity” is an innate part of the self if “national identity” is not? Surely being American is innate to Americans’ senses of self? But are they just born that way? Say, around the preteen years they come to realise they are innately American because they love democracy and pledging to the flag and guns? How do people who aren’t American get their identities into their innate selves, then? Are all the British naturally stoic and love tea? How do they get like that? These are very serious questions; in fact, for large parts of history no-one believed in “gender identity”, but they certainly did believe that national identity was part of the innate self and a “psychological phenomenon”. (Ditto racial identity.) Were they wrong to think that? What makes “gender” any different to nation or race?

Large parts of psychology are actually devoted to how these kinds of delusions about what is innate to the interior self arise out of social performances and social roles. Pretty much all strands in psychology until very recently regarded “gender” as very much not an internal identity; and the current “gender ideology” runs directly counter to both the psychoanalytic/social and experimental/scientific traditions in psychology.

So do tell us more. Where is this gender identity located? In the brain? In the soul? The same place Americanness is located, or somewhere different?

Lol, "most of the history of psychology" also believed women were inferior, being gay was unnatural etc. It's meaningless to cite it as an authority.
Gender identity is located mostly in the brain. Some theorize hormone receptors are involved, and I don't know where those are.

"What is the evidence that it actually exists?" Trans people, for one.

What evidence is there that “gender identity” is an innate part of the self if “national identity” is not? Brain scans. Trans women's brain have been shown to be more akin to a cis woman than a cis man (in terms of parameters like grey matter distribution etc).

"and the current “gender ideology” runs directly counter to both the psychoanalytic/social and experimental/scientific traditions in psychology." No it doesn't. Gender identity, by the way, doesn't imply gender stereotypes don't exist. The 2 things are both real. Stereotypes are a social construct superimposed on sex. Gender identity is how the brain relates to both of those elements. God is it tiring to explain basic stuff to people who refuse to educate themselves.

I'm sure we don't want to derail the OP's thread, but in FWR we have had many conversations about these trans brain studies. You're either not aware of the criticisms of them, or what some of them show, or you are misrepresenting what they mean. Why not start a thread in FWR to argue with people and leave this one for support and advice about the OP's child.

I educated myself by reading this. It says there’s no discernible difference between male and female brains.

New Scientist

I don't believe in God, but I do believe that Christians exist 😕

None of my kids is gender questioning atm (I am heavily GC). But we do discuss it and I tell them that absolutely some people believe in gender ideology and they are perfectly within their right to believe it. I don't mind using pronouns as a matter of politeness. But equally, no one can compel me to believe that a biological female is actually male, even if they remove their breasts.

The reason this debate is so heated is because legally it is nowhere close to settled. Women are scared about losing their rights, and they are coming out fighting (and I support this). But in every day social interactions, for the most part we just accept that different people have different beliefs.

bizarro

Obviously you are doing absolutely the right thing in monitoring an 11 year olds internet use…worrying that others suggest that its a bad thing

ive no useful advice but I would read as much as you can from all sorts of groups, FWR does have many links to helpful organisations and even those that posters don’t think are helpful would be useful to look at in a ‘know thine enemy’ sort of way

I think you have to honour your child's self identity and pronouns, if it's a phase they will come out of it and know you support them. If they don't, they can look into their options post 18 and know you support them. Don't support them and you push them further into the hands of strangers on the internet

Of course you exist colouring foxes, but misunderstanding is almost inevitable when people are working with words which they don't share a definition for.

Think of it like this there was a system for classifying and describing people, it included all people (although I appreciate you have been persuaded otherwise) let's call it ''old progressive'' and then now there is a proposed new system for classifying people, let's call it ''proposed new progressive''. I have studied the proposed new progressive system and find to to be deeply flawed and inferior in a number of ways, as well as (from where I was) not at all progressive. If I believed the proposed new progressive system was better I would be non binary too ? or possibly agender? or possibly cake gender? Clear explanations of what these mean are difficult to come by so its quite hard to be sure. I therefore have enormous empathy with my daughter and any other young woman (which to me means nothing other than a descriptor of the biology you're working with) who isn't sure or doesn't feel comfortable in the still rather sexist world as a woman.

I personally think it is important to fight sexist nonsense, and try to fix the things that make women so uncomfortable rather than changing the word 'woman' into a set of nebulous standards of femininity that girls and young women must measure themselves against to judge if they are 'really' a woman.

If you think that means that I don't believe you exist or that there's something wrong with you, with how you look, feel, or dress, I can only assure you you are quite mistaken. I just look at by life and go I am a woman because I am an adult human female, insofar as I have a gender I guess I'm nb. But one of these things is real important and has had a huge impact on my life in many crucial turning points - often in ways I felt I had little control over, and the other just isn't quite the same. So if someone wants to tell me I'll never be as glamourous as Rupaul I totally agree, if someone tells me Caitlyn Jenner is more of a woman than I'll ever be I don't.

You need to educate yourself, I’m afraid. The history of psychology really did not believe that women were inferior or that being gay was unnatural. In fact rather the complete reverse. It had a huge impact on furthering feminism and civil rights during the twentieth century.

Brain scans?!?! That’s been thoroughly debunked, I’m afraid. You also need to educate yourself about neuroscience as well as psychology.

There is zero evidence for any kind of innate gender identity in the brain. I notice you haven’t engaged with the issue of other kinds of “identity”, either. Tell me why gender identity is any more real as a “psychological phenomenon” than “identifying” as American?

You are clearly young and get all your information from social media, but you would do better not to waste your time here and instead to get an old fashioned degree or two in the real world — maybe in psychology! Or neuroscience! Or anything that involves you doing some actual proper educating of yourself, including reading some actual books and doing some actual work, rather than chirping about brain scans and believing any old shit circulating on the internet.

www.bayswatersupport.org.uk/

Contact the Bayswater support group which is run by parents of children. With gender dysphoria for other parents experiencing similar.

www.bayswatersupport.org.uk/

💯This.

No you don't. Affirmation is not the best approach. And get the kid off the internet.

She's 11.

She is at an impressionable age and one where you will do anything to fit in. If she is using online groups, instead of physical friendships, she will 'change' to be like them. Her body will be changing and there is a lot of changes to get used to which can be challenging. Be aware she maybe trying to pretend or avoid that fact that these will not happen.

Completely agree online access needs to be monitored and controlled - it is the responsible thing a parent should be doing regardless.

Gaming is notorious for being completely unregulated and it attracts adults, mostly males looking for victims to virtually bully or assault. Teen group chats are not much better - numerous cases of vulnerable teens who have been encourage or bullied into committing suicide. Online chat groups are much the same, they create a cult like following and unless you are very sure in what you are (11 year olds will not be) they just force ideology onto them.

Try and find local groups, with real people, and see if that helps your daughter find her feet and become more comfortable with herself. Encourage hobbies and expand her horizons that way and reduce the online activity.

Many of the LGBT in person support groups are for pre-teens up to mid-20s. This is also highly inappropriate.

I very much doubt that teens and preteens who are affirmed at home will stop looking for further steps to take online. It is highly unlikely that social transition will be enough since she can't turn into a boy, she can't achieve what she thinks she wants.

If there is an underlying issue (whether that's major trauma, going through puberty, or being lesbian) that's difficult to cope with when she first becomes aware of it (after all we all coped with puberty in the end, and most lesbians are extremely happy as adults), then thinking that social transition will solve it is deluded (after all, she's a child, so we wouldn't expect clear thinking). Calling herself a boy isn't going to stop her being lesbian or going through puberty.
So this means she'll want more (binders, hormones, surgery) especially if she's encouraged to think these are all fine and dandy and make people SO HAPPY.

She's 11, she shouldn't have any unsupervised internet access.

This. Op, your child's discomfort might go away, but how you react to their request will stay with them forever. Keep in mind they're making themselves pretty vulnerable sharing this info.

Keep in mind they're making themselves pretty vulnerable sharing this info.

The child is ELEVEN. 11. Statements like the above sound absolutely ridiculous. Most eleven year olds still come into mum’s bed when they’re ill, and aren’t allowed to be alone at home for more than half an hour at the most.

Thinking talking about pronouns “makes them vulnerable” shows a complete disconnect from reality, to be honest.

Try to get your head out of the narcissistic late teenage angst, and have a bit of a think about what ELEVEN YEAR OLDS are “vulnerable” to. Grooming by ideologically-warped older teenagers on the internet who want to foist age-inappropriate ideas on them, for one thing — as you’re demonstrating so adeptly on this thread.

If she is female, and sexually attracted to other females, she’s a lesbian. Cis, as well you know because you’ve been told by many many pp’s here, is an insult.

His daughter is ‘she’.