Gay DD(15) confused about dating girl who identifies as male/non-binary

[BetsyBigNose]

My 15 year old DD (I'll refer to her as "Betty", which is not her real name) came out to us about a year ago and has so far only had one (very short-lived, not at all serious) girlfriend. She is really, really keen to start dating someone properly, but struggles to meet other, similar aged lesbians in our area. She is "out" at school and goes to an LGBTQ+ Youth Group and a Theatre School at the weekend, and through these, she has met someone called "Miki" (not their real name).

When they first met, Betty says she thought that Miki identified as non-binary, which she felt comfortable with, as Miki was assigned female at birth and appears quite feminine, despite using they/them pronouns, having a 'boy's haircut' and wearing gender neutral clothing.

Betty and Miki have recently started dating, but Betty has just found out that Miki actually identifies as male/non-binary and does not identify as female at all. This has left Betty feeling very confused, because as a lesbian, she is physically attracted to Miki, but as they don't identify as a girl, Betty doesn't feel that it would be right to date them.

Betty has pretty much decided that there is no future in this relationship for herself and Miki, but with such a small LGBTQ+ community for their age where we live (and the fact that Miki is a lovely person!), Betty is really keen to remain good friends with them. She obviously needs to explain to Miki that she is gay and is only interested in dating girls, and as much as she likes Miki, the fact that they identify as male/non-binary, means that they are not a suitable person for her to be dating.

I'm looking for advice (possibly from someone who is the Mum of someone AFAB who identifies as male/non-binary), so I can help Betty to explain things to Miki without them feeling like they need to change their gender identity so Betty will continue to date them, or being horribly upset or offended by Betty saying the 'wrong thing'.

It just feels like such a minefield, I'm hugely aware of how fragile the mental health of LGBTQ+ teens can be and I desperately want to avoid Betty upsetting Miki, and Betty becoming increasingly stressed and worried about the situation. She's questioning if how she's feeling will make her sound transphobic and she's unsure if it's even ok for her to feel this way about Miki's gender identity (I have obviously reassured her that it's fine to feel however she feels), or if it's disrespectful. Betty has asked for my advice and I really don't want to get it wrong.

Jesus fucking christ was an absolutely ridiculous state of affairs we find ourselves in.

Betty's identity is a same-sex attracted lesbian.

Miki's identity is a (gay?) man.

For them to date, one of their identities will have to 'trump' the other's. Betty will either have to relinquish her identity as a same-sex attracted lesbian (because not to do so would be offensive to Miki's belief that Miki is a man) or Miki will have to accept the fact that she is in fact a female, and that is why Betty fancies her.

Take the gender ideology out of it and you have two young lesbians who could potentially have a healthy romantic relationship.

It's really sad.

This.

Although Betty thinks she may be a lesbian over time she might decide shes actually bisexual rather than just a lesbian.

If shes attracted to someone, then shes attracted to them.

The thing is, your dd is far too hung up on labels and dating a certain type of person. Maybe as a mum the biggest favour you can do is to teach her that what matters in a relationship is that somebody gives her butterflies, makes her smile every day and treats her well. Those things are far more important than which pronoun somebody is choosing to use this week.
As far as the two dating goes, Betty can just tell Miki she doesn't feel ready to date and wants to be friends and relax. There's really no need to launch into a long navel gazing discussion about definitions and labels.

Except Betty has said she is a lesbian, lesbians are not attracted to men and as such she won’t.

She is attracted to another female lesbian who thinks they are male. This does not make her bisexual, she says she is a lesbian, until she finds herself attracted to a biological male, if ever… that should be respected.

And another point. If I decided not to promote someone on my team due to their devout Catholicism then that is, rightly, illegal discrimination.

But it is very unlikely that I would have a serious relationship with anyone who was deeply religious - no matter how much I might like their face or personality, I simply couldn't have a long-term commitment with someone who has such a profoundly different position. As likewise someone who had deep faith would be absolutely reasonable to seek a partner who shares their belief.

To me, gender ideology is similar. I couldn't date someone who practices it, irrespective of how lovely they are in other respects.

The 15 yo is massively over thinking the labels of someone she's attracted to and enjoys the company of.

If Miki wants gender reassignment surgery or to start taking hormones, then that would affect Betty's attraction and that would be what she'd tell her.

However, if she's adamant that it's labels not physical attraction that matters then "it isn't working for me at this time / I've realised I want to focus on school / id prefer us to go back to friends / I'm not ready for a relationship" is fine

The 15 yo is massively over thinking the labels of someone she's attracted to and enjoys the company of.

But it isn't that simple. Betty might be comfortable with the fact she fancies Miki, because Miki is female. But by dating Miki, Betty will have to effectively suppress her identity as a lesbian, in order not to invalidate Miki.

I don't think Betty is over thinking it at all. It actually is this complicated - gender ideology in action.

@Gowithme Finding a trans woman attractive, get in bed with her and finding her naked (post op) body attractive, then when she says "I used to look different, people thought I was a guy" recoiling in disgust is transphobic.
I like how you made the example of a lesbian not wanting to interact with a penis, because nothing I said contradicts that. Genital preference is not transphobic. It's almost like you're trying to misconstrue my position.

Lesbian here. I wouldn’t want to date somebody who was uncomfortable with their femaleness, so I totally see where your DD is coming from, and it’s perfectly alright for her to feel that way. I don’t think she should explain herself, and she shouldn’t have to, she’s free to accept or reject anyone for any reason. I think if the subject comes up she should just say that she doesn’t feel like it’s right for her, that’s a perfectly valid reason and it’s the truth.

Sexual orientation is not a genital preference

I can't believe the amount of advice on here that's centred around convincing Betty it's OK to date this person even though she has decided she doesn't want to!

I think the gender stuff needs to be set aside for a minute, the advice on how to end a fledgling relationship is always the same regardless of the reason. That is... you don't give a reason if it relates to the other person. A vague, inoffensive statement about you not feeling it/ not being ready/ in the right headspace does the job.

Never said it was. If you had read the comment I responded to, you'd understand.

Are you saying that a person should be willing to date anyone from the sex class that they are attracted to? So as a heterosexual woman I should be willing to date any man?
I’m pretty sure attraction doesn’t work like that.

Except the truth would be ‘I used to look different because I’m male’.
If someone gets another person into bed under false pretences, then in certain circumstances it could be deemed deception. I would argue that the chances of any trans person passing as the opposite sex when completely naked is extremely low. For females, there would be extensive scars where they’ve had a mastectomy, and their ‘penis’ would neither look nor function as an actual penis. For males, there would be breast implants possibly, and also extensive scarring around their groin where their penis and testicles had been removed.
I would expect a trans person to be honest with a possible sexual partner before getting their kit off. As I would expect anyone to be honest about something so fundamental.

Hmm. My only rule of romance, earned through a chequered record, is that dating is meant to be fun, or at least more fun that it is horribly stressful. If it is mainly stressful, run for the hills! I do not see the fun in the Miki/Betty scenario. I’m no expert in the gender identity stuff, but I would advise Betty to apply the ‘is this making my life more fun?’ litmus test. If not, don’t do it! Doesn’t matter why

I agree with Itwasntmeright "... it’s perfectly alright for her to feel that way. I don’t think she should explain herself, and she shouldn’t have to, she’s free to accept or reject anyone for any reason. I think if the subject comes up she should just say that she doesn’t feel like it’s right for her, that’s a perfectly valid reason and it’s the truth."

Friendship is also important, so they could just be friends.

I agree with @random9876 .

When the fun stops, stop.

If Betty is so scared of talking to Miki about this, and is dreading this conversation so much that she is asking her mum for advice, even a friendship isn't a good idea. Back-pedal to small talk level acquaintance