Gay DD(15) confused about dating girl who identifies as male/non-binary

[BetsyBigNose]

My 15 year old DD (I'll refer to her as "Betty", which is not her real name) came out to us about a year ago and has so far only had one (very short-lived, not at all serious) girlfriend. She is really, really keen to start dating someone properly, but struggles to meet other, similar aged lesbians in our area. She is "out" at school and goes to an LGBTQ+ Youth Group and a Theatre School at the weekend, and through these, she has met someone called "Miki" (not their real name).

When they first met, Betty says she thought that Miki identified as non-binary, which she felt comfortable with, as Miki was assigned female at birth and appears quite feminine, despite using they/them pronouns, having a 'boy's haircut' and wearing gender neutral clothing.

Betty and Miki have recently started dating, but Betty has just found out that Miki actually identifies as male/non-binary and does not identify as female at all. This has left Betty feeling very confused, because as a lesbian, she is physically attracted to Miki, but as they don't identify as a girl, Betty doesn't feel that it would be right to date them.

Betty has pretty much decided that there is no future in this relationship for herself and Miki, but with such a small LGBTQ+ community for their age where we live (and the fact that Miki is a lovely person!), Betty is really keen to remain good friends with them. She obviously needs to explain to Miki that she is gay and is only interested in dating girls, and as much as she likes Miki, the fact that they identify as male/non-binary, means that they are not a suitable person for her to be dating.

I'm looking for advice (possibly from someone who is the Mum of someone AFAB who identifies as male/non-binary), so I can help Betty to explain things to Miki without them feeling like they need to change their gender identity so Betty will continue to date them, or being horribly upset or offended by Betty saying the 'wrong thing'.

It just feels like such a minefield, I'm hugely aware of how fragile the mental health of LGBTQ+ teens can be and I desperately want to avoid Betty upsetting Miki, and Betty becoming increasingly stressed and worried about the situation. She's questioning if how she's feeling will make her sound transphobic and she's unsure if it's even ok for her to feel this way about Miki's gender identity (I have obviously reassured her that it's fine to feel however she feels), or if it's disrespectful. Betty has asked for my advice and I really don't want to get it wrong.

👏🏻

It's lovely she's feeling able to confide in you.

I think you tell her she doesn't need any reason to end a relationship, or to deny any kind of romantic of sexual contact. She's not answerable to anyone.

There's a really pervasive myth that people (and women especially, but also subsets of others) owe people they're dating an explanation if they stop wanting to date them. When you think about it, it's an extension of the idea that some people don't really get to say no to intimate contact. But it is a myth!

If your DD feels able to say that her identity and orientation mean she's not attracted to someone of this identity and orientation, of course she should feel free, and I'm assuming she'd be courteous and kind. But she doesn't have to explain anything if she doesn't want to.

"Assigned female at birth"?

What does this mean?
Who does the assigning?

Betty doesn’t need to give a reason. Nobody needs to give a reason why they don’t want to date someone.

Great that your dd is happy to confide in you. Teenage years - coming to terms with your adult self - are really confusing. My view would be that your dd is a lesbian - same sex attracted. Her friend is female however they identify and that explains why your daughter feels attracted to them. Why is the label so important?

But maybe the best advice would be for to her not to rush into anything and to wait until she is sure. Miki is probably also struggling with identity issues. They can spend time together as friends and wait and see if things develop further. You do not need to rush into a physical relationship - especially not at 15.

No advice from me but I've enjoyed reading this thread as my DD1 (22) and her friends have just about covered all the colours of the LGBTQ rainbow.
But what strikes me is what a beautiful relationship you have with your daughter, you sound rightfully proud of her and obviously you both have much love for one an other.
At 15 my DD was in quite an abusive heterosexual relationship which damaged her quite deeply.
Since then she's been on such a journey that at times (often!) I've struggled to keep up with.
Ultimately she came out as gay and proud in a big way about seven months ago, as did her male best friend who came out as gay. They are now six months into a 'heterosexual' relationship though they both identify as bisexual.
No idea what the future holds for her or for him but it works at the moment and is beautiful to see.
All I know is that she is happy.
Good luck to you and your daughter

If Betty is attracted to them/him, she should go for it. My oldest identifies as non-binary and I've always told them they are working things out and have plenty of time to work things out, they don't have to be limited in who they are with etc due to a label that doesn't have to be permanent or have very fixed boundaries. I am entirely for expressing sexuality and gender in whatever way you choose, but I do think a lot of their generation will realise they have been overthinking things somewhat, which leads to situations like Betty's! We're in a period of flux now but I think things will calm down as this first very queer-identifying generation matures and figures things out.

I'm as GC as they come, but Iambecomethequeen has it spot on with the comment 'labels are meant to describe, not prescribe'.

I'm sure she can find herself a label to describe 'being attracted to some people of the same sex regardless of gender identity' if she needs one, and that the other young female person can come up with an equally good label to describe 'having a nonstandard gender identity while being same sex attracted'.

I really feel for young lesbians at the moment, gender ideology has taken over Lesbian and gay spaces it must be very confusing.
Id advise her to back all the way off tbh, she won’t win this one no matter how she plays it, there is every chance the other girl will go on to take testosterone etc judging by the amount of young girls on TikTok doing it, easier to walk away now before feelings develop imo, imagine the mindfuck referring to your partner as him must be for a lesbian.

TwoWayMirror I find your post most offensive.

I think your DD comes across as a kind and sensitive soul, she has decided she is lesbian , but doesn’t want to put pressure on Miki. Miki is the one I feel sorry for, she appears to be very confused both about her sexuality/ her gender identity and is probably a bit muddled about pronouns too, bless. . A lot to deal with when you are only 15. These poor kids. I hope this madness starts to fade as life gets back to normal and they discover life beyond screens and TikTok.

There are two separate issues.

First, is that your DD is allowed to end any relationship at any time for any reason including , "I don't like your face". It's extremely important that she understands consent in relationships. She doesn't have to explain or justify not wanting to be in a relationship. It takes two people's consent to start one and only one to finish. We do not teach girls this lesson and it's key. "I'm sorry I'm just not feeling it, can we be friends?" is more than enough. Miki then makes the choice to be friends or not.

Second, sexuality isn't really a head thing, it's a body thing. I've even fancied Tories FFS. So if she fancies Miki, she can date Miki, if she wants to. At 15, you can date safe but unsuitable people. You aren't marrying them FGS. These boxes and labels are sad. I think we've gone backwards in many ways. The freedom to work your stuff out as you go is important.

If Betty ids as a lesbian
And Miki ids as a man

Then I can quite see why Betty's head is in a spin, no matter how much she may be attracted to Miki. Betty deserves the courtesy of her own identity quite as much as Miki does.

But that said, this shouldn't be as hard. 'This isn't working for me Miki, can we be friends' should be enough.

But if Betty is attracted to Miki, what does it matter what sex/gender Miki identifies as? If Betty met a man and was attracted to him, would she automatically turn him down because he didn't fit the idea of who she should be attracted to? Shouldn't she just date whoever she's attracted to regardless of how they identify?

I'd agree with that if this were an older person but I think a 15YO lesbian should probably steer clear of someone who insists they are male while presenting as female until she is very sure about herself and able to handle a partner's difficulty with themselves.

I don't think your DD should get into why she doesn't want to date, just say she isn't feeling it and wants to be friends.

they are both 15
It doesnt matter who identifies as what or what labels they give themselves, if they like and are attracted to each other then they can have an age appropriate relationship
They are making it far more complicated than it needs to be

Congratulations?

How so?

This is where recent attitudes towards gender identity and sexuality are becoming ridiculous IMHO. Why us it actually so important to label your sexuality/gender identity anyway especially at such a young age. Shouldn't we just be encouraging our kids to express their gender and sexuality freely and openly and to date who they're sexually attracted to regardless of the above. Being a gay or transgender is a state of being. It isn't some sort of secret, exclusive society that you should get kicked out of if you don't do it correctly. Maybe if we just focussed on freedom of expression and not labels then kids wouldn't be growing up so unhappy and placing such importance and confusion around the above. PS, you getting so involved with your child's love life whatever the reason is a little bit creepy IMHO

@Ahurricaneofjacarandas sorry, not on topic but I LOVE your username! 🥰

This is a lie. First, people who talk about transphobia and attraction are saying : "If you are attracted to someone phisically (yes, even naked), you like their personality, but you decide not to date them only because they're trans you're transphobic".
Second, not every trans person believes that, because they are not a monolith. There is no single "gender ideology".
But of course many here ignore that purposefully.

There maybe no single gender ideology, but it is an ideology.
And it is prescriptive and harmful to young people.
The detransing of a future generation of damaged young adults, should be held up as a scandal that many adults could have helped prevent, and instead were captivated by the ideology (gies).

All the best op

Glad you asked!
It means the doctor looked at the newborn's genitals and wrote something on the birth certificate. Then society (parents, teachers and when old enough, peers) starts treating them a certain way, using certain words, etc.
Assigned female at birth means:"they looked at my genitals and assumed my gender identity would be woman". Which, considering most people are cis, is a fair assumption.

Just an interesting anecdote: when my me and my sister were babies my mum avoided blue and pink while dressing us, so that people wouldn't treat us differently assuming our gender. A vain effort: people assumed (rightly, but neither me or my mum knew it then) I was a girl and my sister was a boy. When she corrected them, the change in behaviour was istantaneous: people stopped baby talking to me and started saying how I would grow up to be a little genius etc.
These mentalities, so ingrained in society, are the target of true feminism.

@axolotlfloof Being GC is also an ideology. That doesn't mean much. Shouldn't you wait for this huge of detransitions to actually happen before using it as an argument? Most detransitions now are because of social pressure, not changing your mind about gender identity.
Anyways, I'm done responding to you as this thread is to help OP with her daughter.

OP, I'm glad so many people gave useful advice. I agree that teaching about consent is a key here.

NO
the midwife looked at your genitals and recognised that your sex was female
the gender bollocks follows as you note but as it's a cultural artefact, can be changed