Gay DD(15) confused about dating girl who identifies as male/non-binary

[BetsyBigNose]

My 15 year old DD (I'll refer to her as "Betty", which is not her real name) came out to us about a year ago and has so far only had one (very short-lived, not at all serious) girlfriend. She is really, really keen to start dating someone properly, but struggles to meet other, similar aged lesbians in our area. She is "out" at school and goes to an LGBTQ+ Youth Group and a Theatre School at the weekend, and through these, she has met someone called "Miki" (not their real name).

When they first met, Betty says she thought that Miki identified as non-binary, which she felt comfortable with, as Miki was assigned female at birth and appears quite feminine, despite using they/them pronouns, having a 'boy's haircut' and wearing gender neutral clothing.

Betty and Miki have recently started dating, but Betty has just found out that Miki actually identifies as male/non-binary and does not identify as female at all. This has left Betty feeling very confused, because as a lesbian, she is physically attracted to Miki, but as they don't identify as a girl, Betty doesn't feel that it would be right to date them.

Betty has pretty much decided that there is no future in this relationship for herself and Miki, but with such a small LGBTQ+ community for their age where we live (and the fact that Miki is a lovely person!), Betty is really keen to remain good friends with them. She obviously needs to explain to Miki that she is gay and is only interested in dating girls, and as much as she likes Miki, the fact that they identify as male/non-binary, means that they are not a suitable person for her to be dating.

I'm looking for advice (possibly from someone who is the Mum of someone AFAB who identifies as male/non-binary), so I can help Betty to explain things to Miki without them feeling like they need to change their gender identity so Betty will continue to date them, or being horribly upset or offended by Betty saying the 'wrong thing'.

It just feels like such a minefield, I'm hugely aware of how fragile the mental health of LGBTQ+ teens can be and I desperately want to avoid Betty upsetting Miki, and Betty becoming increasingly stressed and worried about the situation. She's questioning if how she's feeling will make her sound transphobic and she's unsure if it's even ok for her to feel this way about Miki's gender identity (I have obviously reassured her that it's fine to feel however she feels), or if it's disrespectful. Betty has asked for my advice and I really don't want to get it wrong.

No doctor at my birth. Sex is what it is, whether a health professional is there or not, so simple that seeing genitals on ultrasound are a correct proxy for sex in almost all cases. The assumptions of gender are indeed the target of true feminism. Distorted feminism states that the way to escape gender is to insist that sex doesn't really exist, or is changeable, or not related to bodies.

First, people who talk about transphobia and attraction are saying : "If you are attracted to someone phisically (yes, even naked), you like their personality, but you decide not to date them only because they're trans you're transphobic".

Every single other consideration isn't important compared to consent. I can choose to date anyone who'll have me, or choose not to, based on any preference I have.

Consent is being muddied. It is absolute. Any reason at all is fine to refuse sexual contact with someone.

My vagina is not subject to equalities legislation. I get to choose. Calling someone phobic for refusing is coercive and frankly rapey.

The boy was nice, but was seemingly only gay for afab boys

That's what gay means. It's not about identity. It's about bodies.

If two people are attracted to each other then the labels don’t really matter do they? Many young adults are quite fluid with regards to their sexuality whilst they work out what they want and don’t want. Take bisexuals. Then add in what they identify as. It just overcomplicates things.

With all relationships, honesty is key. Something along the lines of, “as a lesbian I am really attracted to you, but finding out you identify as male has left me feeling confused. Can we take the time to build a relationship where we get to know each other properly, even if it’s just as friends, so I can get my head round it?”

There was no doctor at my birth. No-one assumed my identity at birth. Does this mean I am neither a woman nor a man?

What has your talk about stereotyping got to do with 'assignments at birth'? You've not evidenced any correlation whatsoever.

I don't think that at 15, not having a boyfriend/girlfriend should be an issue. Isn't this the time when they are taking GCSEs and starting college, maybe a part time job?

I’m a retired doctor. Neither I nor any of my colleagues has ever “assigned” a sex to a neonate. The baby’s sex is fixed at conception, confirmed in utero by ultrasound scan and observed at birth.
Whether the parents or society then inflict outdated gender stereotypes onto the baby, is up to them.
But one would hope after decades of feminists fighting to get rid of such sexist “gender” nonsense, it will die out, rather than be resurrected by gender woo believers.

But if the boy only liked afab (assigned female at birth) boys, then that means biological females who identify as boys right? So he is heterosexual?

Sorry you're right. It's these silly acronyms which have confused me. Much easier when we could sense and say that gay boys fancy other boys.

Betty should just say that she wants to be friends and is not going to get into a romantic relationship yet. And this will prove to be the case if there is nobody to get into one with.

Surely the only questions at that age are:

1. Are you sexually attracted to them?
2. Would you choose them as a friend (ie are they a nice person)?
3. Are you both single?

The labels are irrelevant, but as a pp pointed out, there are now labels for every eventuality. Probably pansexual fits?

It seems the days when you got pissed on shandy & snogged whoever you wanted to are a bygone era….

People who argue that agree with you: even a bigoted refusal is absolutely to be respected. Also, you might be surprised to learn this, but most trans people don't want to date people who they find transphobic.

If someone were attracted to a light skinned woman, only to drop her because they discovered she had a black parent, wouldn't you say it's fair to call that person racist? Same reasoning. You can, despite what some people here would say, have trans people who have no outward discernible difference to a cis person. Sexual attraction doesn't give a damn about chromosomes. If the only reason you find a person not attractive is because transness itself is ickey to you, you're transphobic. Still doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to refuse sex with someone.
Anyway, I'm done talking about this with other posters too.

Assigned female at birth means:"they looked at my genitals and assumed my gender identity would be woman". Which, considering most people are cis, is a fair assumption

Actually, I think they looked at your genitalia & observed your biological sex. No assumptions about whether you’d prefer trousers or dresses when you grew up.

I think you have it wrong. Many people consider it transphobic to not have the physical attraction, e.g. they consider it transphobic to not open up their dating pool to trans people.

OP, I also agree that your DD is overthinking it. The only thing that matters is whether she is happy in the relationship. She gets to choose to not be with someone for whatever reason. The only thing I would caution is realistic expectations about a friendship afterwards. Just as she gets to choose who she dates, Miki gets to choose who they befriend, and they might not want to still be friends after the break up.

I understand why this is confusing for your DD. She wants to date a girl and her identity as a lesbian is probably important to her, as it should be. Teenage years are important for discovering the type of relationship you want and the type of person you want to be with, as well as who you are. She wants to explore what it's really like to be a woman dating a woman. But she also probably wants to respect her friend's identify. This must be confusing, on the one hand, accepting that Miki is a boy conflicts with her own identity as gay, affirming her identity conflicts with Miki's. This stuff is a headfuck. I'd say, break up by saying that she isn't feeling it. If Miki really pushes she can explain that she thinks part of what she's not feeling is she wants to date girls. This isn't transphobic, it's confirming Miki's own identity. If anything it might be viewed as "transphobic" to insist she only likes girls whilst dating Miki.

I wouldn't put her off serious dating either if that's what she wants. For straight women it's really normal to fall hard and have real relationships at 15, why should your DD miss out just because there are less folk to choose from? I for one enjoyed my 'serious' teenage relationship far more than any of my teenage flings, I cherish it still now that 20+ years have passed.

You're clearly retired if you call gender identity "woo". You don't seem to know any of the research done on trans people.
I'm not saying the doctor is responsible for every other person who assigns a gender to the child. I'm just saying that parents hear what Doc says and associate gender to sex.

You seem to think gender stereotypes and gender identity are the same thing, but they aren't. Most trans people today are feminists and don't want anyone to be forced into an unwanted presentation, body or label.
They, on the contrary, argue that if you don't like to be called "she", an arbitrary sequence of sound, you should be able to change that regardless of your genitals. What tyranny, right?
They say if you want to change your body, you should be able to, because it's yours. Your body, your choice, right?

Sexual attraction doesn't give a damn about chromosomes
in evolutionary terms, this seems extremely unlikely

@AgathaAllAlong I used to think so too, until I listened to actual trans people and not second hand reports. Now, there may be some crazy people (as in every group), but the majority of the discussion I've read on this was unanimous that physical attraction was uncontrollable.

Ok, you're nitpicking :)
It doesn't care whether a person has XX or XY chromosomes, given an otherwise identical body. Which, by the way, is possible. If you didn't know this I don't blame you. Most people don't know much about biology, as shown by most transphobes when they argue.

Your body, your choice, right?
and your body, your choice to be naked next to teenagers of the opposite sex to your and to compete against them in sport etc.
no thank you

People with XX chromosomes don't have an identical body to people with XY. How could they

It doesn't care whether a person has XX or XY chromosomes, given an otherwise identical body. Which, by the way, is possible.

This is utter bollocks. Bollocks being one of the obvious differences.

This is a lie. First, people who talk about transphobia and attraction are saying : "If you are attracted to someone phisically (yes, even naked), you like their personality, but you decide not to date them only because they're trans you're transphobic

So a lesbian not wanting to date a transwoman because they are male is not transphobic? The reason for not wanting to date them is because they are not physically attracted to men so is not transphobia? But lesbians have been harassed for not wanting to date transwomen which makes no sense from what you're saying.

You're clearly retired if you call gender identity "woo". You don't seem to know any of the research done on trans people.
I'm not saying the doctor is responsible for every other person who assigns a gender to the child. I'm just saying that parents hear what Doc says and associate gender to sex. Absolute bullshit. Most parents are not as old fashioned as you make out. They hear the 'doc' say biology. They know that there are some stereotypes associated with that biology but they are not ruled by it. What research are you referring to? What do you think the research proves?

You seem to think gender stereotypes and gender identity are the same thing, but they aren't. Most trans people today are feminists and don't want anyone to be forced into an unwanted presentation, body or label.
Do you think anyone else does? How arrogant! I don't know anyone who wants to be forced into any presentation or label. That's got nothing to do with being trans. Unwanted body? People don't have a choice about their body I'm afraid.

They say if you want to change your body, you should be able to, because it's yours. Your body, your choice, right? People don't object to grown adults doing things to their body even when I would honestly see it as mutilation (removing healthy breasts for example) but you are being completely disingenous to make out it's only to do what changing your body. People then want to gain access to spaces not reserved for them and you damn well know it. That is what the objection is about.

But if Betty is attracted to Miki, what does it matter what sex/gender Miki identifies as? If Betty met a man and was attracted to him, would she automatically turn him down because he didn't fit the idea of who she should be attracted to? Shouldn't she just date whoever she's attracted to regardless of how they identify?

Late to the thread but didn't get past this because it's also my first thought.

I think teens are made to feel like they have to choose who they are and what they identify as from such a young age. They feel pressurised too box themselves into a being.

I've raised ds from birth to believe you love people for who they are not what they are and no one ever has to define the self as something.

I think that's because of the generation I'm from. I have many homosexual friends who have actually been married in the past. Many say they loved their husbands but it never felt like they felt love should be. But that doesn't mean they didn't fall in love with them but just back then people looked for a sex to fall in love with because homosexuality was still a crime when they were born and attitudes hadn't changed much.

I think if we are actually going to become this inclusive society we aim to be we need to change attitudes again - in our attempt to accept everybody we've actually reinforced gender stereotypes (what actually is the definition of identifying as male/ female?) and made people feel like they have to box themselves into being a particular thing.

Betty needs to be Betty and spend time with Miki. If that feeling becomes something more than friendship then Betty needs to decide if she wants it to go further or not. If Betty doesn't want a relationship all she has to tell Miki is just that. "I really like you as a friend but I don't want a deeper relationship". How Miki identifies, dresses, cuts her hair and whatever pronouns she uses shouldn't be a reason.

I too was born without the aid of a ‘doc’.
So was DH (he even dodged the midwife).

Our sex is not in doubt, despite this lack of medical authority busily ‘assigning’ the bleeding obvious. Who on earth decided that terminology once used for rare DSDs should be applied to every baby?

What a bizarre mixing up of two completely different things to try to make a point - but so very typical IME.
Not wanting to go out with someone because one of their parents is black and you don't like black people is racist. Being a gay woman and not wanting to go out with someone who was born a man, has a penis and has lived 40 years as a man but now calls themselves a woman is not transphobic. Not wanting to go out with someone whose face you are very attracted to but whose cock you're not isn't transphobic. Not wanting to go out with someone because they are biologically male even if they have removed their cock and testicles and look like a woman is not transphobic. Fucking ludicrous to suggest it- but then I find a lot of the arguments are.

Not wanting to go out with someone because one of their parents is transgender and you don't like transgender people - now that's the same as the question you asked about race - and is transphobic. Stop conflating two completely different things.