Treatment ban creates uncertainty for trans youth, families

[Shizuku]

Is this what you want for the UK?

I really think the idea of starting these before the ups and downs of puberty/ growing have finished is pretty iffy. And the use of the long term ones on girls this age really bothers me.

Our school nurse pushed the pill to young girls who weren't even sexually active. "For painful periods". I was on the pill for years before my neurologist mentioned that anyone with aural migraine shouldn't even be on it, because of the stroke risk.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/contraception-pill-birth-control-depression-mood-teenager-symptoms-a9133816.html

Study

There were studies that said otherwise etc but on the whole my feeling is there's something there but it's seen as problematic to really look at, because the pill is seen as a good thing.

Another thing that ground my gears was with AZ young female fatalities.

So many on the news etc saying really casually oh well it's not as risky as the pill so (essentially) what's the fuss.

I found that really shit. Why should it be accepted as a given that when it comes to sex/ hormones/ babies etc well it's risky but that's a woman's lot sort of thing.

That was how I reacted to it anyway.

Oh and the side effects of pill can include. Loss of libido which is somewhat ironic and in a girl at the start of her sex life who is still growing, may well be what she considers normal. That's pretty shit.

Regarding mental health issues for youth and children - has there been any reported decrease in diagnoses of eating disorders (especially anorexia) occurring simultaneously with an increased diagnosis/presentation of transgender identification?

I don't think that sort of thing is being studied. Affirmation. Etc.

For years on here there have been women saying how they felt about puberty. The unpleasant discomfort of how you go from little kid to fuckable in the blink of an eye.

The way suddenly people start scrutinising your body. Men start looking at you in a sort of. Like you're a thing they would like to eat. Your humanity goes. It's a real shock.

When I was at school in the 80s girls wore really baggy clothes. And starved themselves. As a reaction to all that. Hide the breasts. Try and stop the attention from adult men. Periods might stop. Stay a kid, stave off the scary expectations and everything around being a female seen as sexually mature/ maturing.

Now. Breast binders. Mastectomies. Breasts are fetishised in the UK. It's all very difficult and a long running feminist discussion.

There is an obvious area for study in girls binding, wanting breast removal.

Where is it? No where.

Interestingly. And awfully. Breast ironing is seen as abuse. It's done to try to hide the girls developing body to protect them from the attentions of men. It's painful. Abs accepted as wrong.

Breast binding OTOH is aok. The scouts (I think it was) have a section on how trans boys who bind may not be able to participate in physical activities because it can limit breathing. No questions. No. What the hell? Just. Let them sit out.

No there aren't any studies and some have been actively suppressed (denied funding after complaints lodged).

See also, detransitioners.

And, the way trans people (sometimes with full surgery) who don't deny their sex are treated.

This is not something that is allowed to be looked at. No debate. Etc.

Its awful, these children should have been immediately given inpatient therapy to deal with whatever issues they have. I guess its a failure of a private health care system.

If this were to happen in the UK I would be campaigning for them to get actual help. I would not be wanting the NHS to start chopping off parts of their body.

What has actually created uncertainty is the progression of the term “trans healthcare” becoming synonymous with puberty blockers and cross sex hormones. Children and their parents have been led to believe, by clinics and activists like yourself @Shizuku that the only healthcare that matters is going on puberty blockers.

But now we have a situation where puberty blockers have been shown, by the very clinic that recommends them, to offer no improvement in psychological functioning and cause physical harm. We have a situation where NICE have reviewed the evidence for the use of puberty blockers and cross sex hormones and found it to be poor. This situation has created uncertainty because those children and their families should be saying to their clinics “you told us this was best for our child, and now it isn’t?”

It is the complete lack of evidence of any benefit, and evidence of harm that has created uncertainty, not anything anyone here has brought on. If the Tavistock or any other clinic had been able to present in court or publish quality evidence for the use of hormonal alteration then we wouldn’t be in a situation of uncertainty.

This has been created because clinics powered on, knowing the treatment was experimental but with the arrogant belief that they were doing the right thing despite a lack of evidence of such. It took the intervention of the High Court to put a stop to this.

Trans healthcare should mean mental health support, therapy, and if appropriate when children reach adulthood they can consider hormonal treatments when they have the capacity for consent and understand that even for adults, they will not necessarily help and will result in physical harm long term.

No one is denying children healthcare. Experimental, harmful hormonal treatments which don’t help and to which children cannot consent have been ceased.

Why anyone would want to keep giving them in the face of the facts remains a mystery to me.

Yes, yes to the focus being on children and teens mental health. There is a crisis at the moment which I can see amongst my DC’s friends and also through my line of work. Despite the push of ‘growth mindset’ and ‘the values’ etc at schools in the last 10 yrs or so, children are massively struggling with resilience, acceptance, respect, honesty, determination etc. They can name them, they can tell you what they mean, but they just can’t seem to embody them.

Saying that, I don’t see how this has got anything to do with feminism op. You might do better to get this thread moved to children’s mental health. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Excellent advice here. CAHMS in the UK is criminally underfunded and young people in desperate need of support often have nothing or a small number of sessions using only a narrow range of techniques which absolutely are not suitable for all. Trans healthcare for young people should mean lots of psychological support and watchful waiting on the irreversible and experimental physical interventions. Instead it is the reverse. Campaigners like the OP insist that children are mutilated and offer precious little emotional and psychological support.

I agree. This has nothing to do with FWR. I too have reported this thread and asked that it be moved to LGBT kids

What I’d like to see is for children with gender dysphoria to receive the best possible treatment, based on proper evidence and gold standard studies.

Unfortunately it appears those driving the trans agenda in medicine have abandoned any attempt to use randomized trials with long-term follow up, and have moved forward using poorly evidenced techniques which is now creating concern.

This is likely to result in increasing instability as attempts are made to return to safer medical practices and of course, the unfortunate children in the centre of this gathering scandal are the ones who will be least well-served and most badly affected.

To suggest this problem is created by those attempting to ensure children are treated safely is, quite simply, shooting the messenger.

Is this what you want for the UK?

Yes actually it is.

Puberty blockers have no business being used on children. Its medical experimentation and its abuse.

Medication should only ever be a last choice when all other avenues have been exhausted (and on adults).

As with your post yesterday on "genital inspections" you are sensationalising and manipulative in your postings and its really not acceptable. Children who are impacted by gender issues to a point of feeling suicidal need psychiatric and psychological support not medication. Perhaps you should go look at the damage caused by blockers but then yesterday demonstrated you won't let facts stand in the way of your mission to manipulate people into being unconditional trans allies.

I have first hand experience of testosterone blockers and cross sex hormones. Blockers are nasty drugs. Whilst on blockers I was tested every 3 months for kidney function and liver function and to see if I may have developed a prolactinoma - a form of brain tumour. Now as post op I am committed to a lifetime of drugs and blood tests; whilst this was the right decision for me it came at the end of a very long period of screening into adulthood and I know I exhausted all other avenues first. I was a child with Gender Identity Disorder. As a child I would have taken puberty blockers but as an adult I am glad that I wasn't given that option.

The solution here is not to give out drugs but rather to stop the message that touts these drugs as miracle solutions and offers false hope.

BlueLipstickRocks you always echo, so beautifully the voices of my trans friends in real life. How I wish your voices could be heard above the spite and the fear which causes divisions. Maybe then, as a society, we would have more chance of living fully in acceptance, support and mutual respect.

The solution here is not to give out drugs but rather to stop the message that touts these drugs as miracle solutions and offers false hope.

Absolutely

@IHateCoronavirus

BlueLipstickRocks you always echo, so beautifully the voices of my trans friends in real life. How I wish your voices could be heard above the spite and the fear which causes divisions. Maybe then, as a society, we would have more chance of living fully in acceptance, support and mutual respect.

Yes I agree. I really appreciate your posts @BlueLipstickRocks. You have the actual experience here to know what's what and I find your insights really valuable.

@BlueLipstickRocks

Is this what you want for the UK?

Yes actually it is.

Puberty blockers have no business being used on children. Its medical experimentation and its abuse.

Medication should only ever be a last choice when all other avenues have been exhausted (and on adults).

As with your post yesterday on "genital inspections" you are sensationalising and manipulative in your postings and its really not acceptable. Children who are impacted by gender issues to a point of feeling suicidal need psychiatric and psychological support not medication. Perhaps you should go look at the damage caused by blockers but then yesterday demonstrated you won't let facts stand in the way of your mission to manipulate people into being unconditional trans allies.

I have first hand experience of testosterone blockers and cross sex hormones. Blockers are nasty drugs. Whilst on blockers I was tested every 3 months for kidney function and liver function and to see if I may have developed a prolactinoma - a form of brain tumour. Now as post op I am committed to a lifetime of drugs and blood tests; whilst this was the right decision for me it came at the end of a very long period of screening into adulthood and I know I exhausted all other avenues first. I was a child with Gender Identity Disorder. As a child I would have taken puberty blockers but as an adult I am glad that I wasn't given that option.

The solution here is not to give out drugs but rather to stop the message that touts these drugs as miracle solutions and offers false hope.

"I have first hand experience of testosterone blockers and cross sex hormones. Blockers are nasty drugs. Whilst on blockers I was tested every 3 months for kidney function and liver function and to see if I may have developed a prolactinoma - a form of brain tumour."

Do you want to give me some evidence that T blockers cause prolactinomas? Because the doctors don't seem to know what causes them, and I'm sure you wouldn't want to be accused of being "sensationalising and manipulative in your postings"

Once again, MNHQ tries to hide my post about trans kids made on the feminist board by moving it to LGBT Children. Meanwhile, the following threads about LGBT kids are still very much active on the feminism board:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4222058-Help-explain-non-binary

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4222384-genital-inspections

What's the difference? Simple - my posts are not based on transphobia.

I agree that there are other threads on FWR which don't really belong there.
I'm not at all sure this is the right place either, I've thought of this and the LGBT Parents board as support rather than general discussion boards. Maybe there should be an 'LGBT Chat/Discussion' board?

Or maybe we need to accept that 'FWR' has become a wider 'women and children's rights and safety' board?

Moving to another board isn't hiding it. It's where you're more likely to get helpful discussion. Considering you still haven't actually clarified what you were asking in the OP it's hardly MN's fault for not understanding your rather idiosyncratic train of thought or use of language.

What's the difference? Simple - my posts are not based on transphobia.
.
There is no transphobia. Why to you keep accusing?

It's not hiding it. I would think LGBT children is exactly the right place for it to get the feedback that you're looking for.

@Erkrie

It's not hiding it. I would think LGBT children is exactly the right place for it to get the feedback that you're looking for.

The feedback I am looking for is whether or not GC feminists want this for the UK.

Want what? You still haven't specified!

@Shizuku

Once again, MNHQ tries to hide my post about trans kids made on the feminist board by moving it to LGBT Children. Meanwhile, the following threads about LGBT kids are still very much active on the feminism board:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4222058-Help-explain-non-binary

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4222384-genital-inspections

What's the difference? Simple - my posts are not based on transphobia.

The thread about non-binary is about helping a family help a young girl come to terms with her female sex, and the thread misnamed as “genital inspections” is actually about a bill designed to protect women and girls’ sport, so both in the appropriate place.

HTH.

The feedback I am looking for is whether or not GC feminists want this for the UK

You didn't ask that question in your op. Although I'm not sure what it has to do with feminism anyway. Why do you want GC feminists in particular to answer this question?

The feedback I am looking for is whether or not GC feminists want this for the UK.

Why? Why just GC feminist? Why don't you want this discussion opened up to a broader audience?

For what it's worth I want to see the best treatment based on clinical evidence for children experiencing distress.

I don't think that view is particularly controversial, do you?

I posted this on another thread:

"Does anyone acknowledge and support gender dysphoria without the assumption that the treatment is transitioning?"

That's the problem for our youth isn't it? The current cultural climate is that feeling unhappy and uncomfortable with your changing adolescent self = transgender, and the solution is medical transitioning. There's no other option on the table for them unfortunately.

Is there anyone, in any country, undertaking research in the huge rise of teens (especially girls, especially autistic girls) presenting as transgender?

No, why not? My cynical self would say it's not in the profit interests of pharmaceutical companies to delve into and resolve teen MH issues without medicalisation. Far more profit to be made from putting kids and young adults on a life long regime of medication.

Mental health provision on the NHS is so so lacking, for our family, it's no longer funding piano lessons or swimming lessons for our kids, it's paying for therapists in the hope that their MH will improve, that they won't put themselves on a medical path with physical risks and little, if any, benefit.

It's an unethical tactic to say to parents: put your kid on puberty blockers otherwise they'll kill themselves. Kids are already in a fragile state, how thoughtless and unethical for anyone to assume that many parental actions are anything but wanting to keep them safe, from themselves and from the cult-like gender ideology.