Both our daughters are claiming to be trans

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Hi there.
I have 2 daughter's 12 and 15 years old.
For quite some time now they are both claiming to be transgender. I though this phase would pass but it hasn't and has esculated to minor self halm.
Arm or hand cutting .

The youngest of my two daughters is now claiming her name is zack. And the other wants to wear some kind of body bonding thing that squashes her boobs in. Which would obviously deform her.
I think all this is due to friends/crowd they are following at school. And my wife and i are at a loss of what to do. I do not belive either of them are transgender. I belive one may be gay ,the oldest one but they seem to be following the ques of children at shool ,one in particular.

Its starting to wear me down and im loosing sleep.
Any advice at this point would be greatly appreciated.

Have a look at the Transgender Trend website. Lots of resources and suggestions on there.

Also, if you haven’t already, start monitoring their internet use. No more internet alone in their own rooms.

Have you looked for counselling for them? They sound like they are going through a really scary time, and that by denying their feelings they are now self harming. Could you try family therapy? You need to accept your feelings in this mater less than theirs do.

If you push back it might make it worse. Maybe offer to take them to counselling before even considering binding. You could offer to buy DD a sports bra instead of letting them bind. They will find a way if you say no. If they were trans would you turn your backs on them?

Don’t play doctors unless you are one. Get them both a GP appointment to talk about it.

You risk doing long-term medical harm to your children by, for example, make-shift ways of bonding. They are already desperate enough to start minor self harm. You also risk severe mental and emotional damage by not approaching this the right way, not to mention to risk of losing your relationship with your children.

You need to get them some support so that they can think about this in a safe environment, both medically and emotionally.

Clearly you care about them a lot or you wouldn't be writing here about it. So tap into that and get a conversation going. Admit you're at a loss but say the goal you want is that they are happy and you have a real relationship in which they can trust you. Then find a mentor or a specialised organisation.

Even if it is a phase - which seems unlikely, but I suppose possible - it will be better for them and you if you treat them respectfully in the process.

Best of luck!

I very much disagree with the no private internet use though. They clearly already feel very isolated, if they are a gender minority, they probably are very isolated where they live, and they should be entitled to have positive relationships of their own with a community or a mentor.

I suppose you could actively help them find such a mentor and community, though, to make sure it's a positive and uplifting one that doesn't push or bully them (into whichever way).

If I honestly felt my daughter was being influenced by another child at school I would move to live in a different area of the country far away from school friend. Don't try argument as it will.just entrench them. Could you get dd be copying older dd? At the moment grandkids are seen as cool by their peers and many may be simply wanting to be cool and accepted by peers. As a Sixth Form Tutor I have seen how one charismatic trans child has recruited several others. Your best hope is removing your daughter's from their influence. Don't allow breast binding until over 18 when you can no longer stop them. I have also witnessed a so called transchild start at school and within 6 weeks it fizzled out as not befriended by other transchildren.

Research shows that the vast majority of children claiming to be trans actually have some other trauma happening and this is their response to it. For example bullying, anxiety etc. Think about what else might be happening in their lives. And the previous poster who doesn't think that children should have their internet use monitored is wrong. They are children.

I've done a bit of study in the area as I'm writing a screenplay with a trans-man character and wanted to learn as much as possible. Whilst I believe it is possible to be trans I have also hears talk of other reasons why people believe they are trans and then later realise they aren't. These are the examples i came across:

• Being a lesbian and not feeling that it is acceptable for women to like women so feeling they need to be a man.
• Being on the autism spectrum. Feeling that they just don't 'fit in' and assuming that it's because they are 'in the wrong body'.
• Sexual assaults or having had men around them who look down on women. Making them feel they need to become a male to be safe or become their own defender.
• Eating disorders and body dysmorphia meaning they may want to get rid of their breasts to feel slimmer and see transitioning as a way to do this.

I believe personality disorders such as npd can also be a factor - causing the need to compete with a sibling/friend/partner or use whatever means they can get attention.

Social media is also a strong influence, especially on teenagers who are still trying to find their place in the world.

I recommend considering if any on the above are possibilities and maybe discussing with your kids.

Some videos on detrasitioning might be worth a watch on YouTube too. There's a lad called Ty. Umm I saw another last night as well, I will post some links next time I'm on the computer.

Of course it is possible they are trans. But lots of other things are possible too.

Thanks for your imput everyone.
Weve taken alot of this onboard.
We are going to limit the time the oldest girl spends with the instigator.
The instigator has been easy to spot she is a child that is very outspoken like an "activist".
Our oldest daughter is on the autisim spectrum so this makes sense.
And yes we agree this kind of thing seems very prevalent in schools these days. Along with gender neutrality and all that pizzazz.
We do believe the younger daughter is following the older daughter.
Ive taken the older daughter to the GP and theve signed her up to Cans. Il also take our youngest as well.
Our issue is this. How can we seperate our daughter with the instigator. And the group without it effecting her. And is that even possible seems as thats her only friend group at school?
The school is partly trying to add pressures even suggesting we let her bind. I actually feel letting her bind is child abuse.
So any involvement of the school is out as they are helping to activly support kids who appear lgbt etc. We are afraid not only to harm our daughter's but also sfraid to have the school point there finger at US for child abuse for being "unsupportive".
We are not being unsupportive. We simply know that our children are probebly not even gay let alone trans. Thank you everyone for your input.

I should also add, I'm pretty sure that if I was a youth in this day and age I would have transitioned. I didn't identify with my gender in general as a teen.

All my friends were guys and I had no interest in talking about boybands or soaps ect like all the girls did. I played videogames (back when girls didn't tend to) and I hated being small and scrawny. My boobs made me very uncomfortable so much so I always wore baggy clothes. Women were iften described as being 'drama queens' and 'high maintenance' around me...and i wasmt that, right? I wasn't that so...i mustn't be a woman.

If I had transitioned I have no doubt I would be happily living as a man right now. But I didn't and by the time I was into my twenties a bit...I was totally fine being a girl. And my body...is just my body.

I wasn't trans. But I do think a lot of people may in my situation have assumed they were.

Perhaps try and point them towards some good female role models. Show them string women who have done amazing things. And talk to them about how all teens are uncomfortable in their bodies, it doesn't mean the bodies are wrong for them and how they define themselves, not their gender.

I wouldn't try separating them from 'the instagator' (lol really? Its just another kid). Let them be friends. Otherwise you are just making it all seem more like forbidden fruit. And you don't want to do that to a rebellious teen!

You should book them both in with a GP and try to be open minded about it all. Being a teenager is scary by itself, and if your children are transgender, it would be even scarier (especially to not have supporting parents).
Be opened minded and try to accept them.
And if they are transgender, do not brush it off as a phase!!! It can hurt them so much more!! They need supporting parents and peers!!!

Would you consider moving schools? It sounds like they’re part of the problem.

I totally agree.
Its only natural to feel like your body dosnt fit.
Even as a male, i felt to short in hight. And felt i didnt fit my body so even i can relate as a male.
For a female it must be equally as bad if not alot worse. And popular culture dosnt help when most girls dont identify with being "hogh maintanace drama queens" caked in make up.

Im not sure how exactly, but i also agree they need some strong female role models to show being female is something to actually be proud of.

There are a few girl vloggers on YouTube that talk about living with autism and learning to love themselves ect... Maybe that would be a good start rather than linking them to detransitioning stuff. That way it's not linked to saying 'hey I don't think you are trans' it's just 'hey this other person vloggs about the struggles she faces with autism'.

Or if there's any women on social media that maybe have the same hobbies/interests/goals as her and talk about pursuing them.

Oh and just noticed you said 'probably not even gay'. Trans-men can fancy men or women so...like the sexuality isn't linked.

So if she is saying she likes women...she probably likes women. At least the older child. I mean, by 15 you have a general idea of these things usually...

12 year old might not know yet.

Might be wise to sit down with them and tell them they can like what they like and they don't need to be a boy if they like girls. Just incase that might be a contributing factor. Being dismissive of her sexuality might be read by her as you not being ok with it (in teen minds where everyone is against them lol) which could further push her towards...

Youtuber yo samdy sam is good for autism vids. There's 'invisible i' too. Haven't seen much of the laters stuff but she seems a bit younger so might appeal more.

The youtuber Tyince is the person I mentioned that transitioned from female to male and then realised it wasn't for him. But I think he realised he had transitioned largely due to assaults and wanting to distance himself from being female. Nelemil was the vlogger I saw last night talking about wanting to detransition due to realising the reason he had gone through it in the first place was a result of his poor mental health at the time ect…

Is a house move or school move an option?

This must be really difficult and I'd worry that drastic action like moving house or taking them away from their friends would make the situation worse not better.

I'd encourage them to feel comfortable in themselves, if they prefer that you call them by another name then maybe give it a go - basically try and respect their teenage need to rebel against norms, but push hard against anything like hormone blockers or breast binding that have long term health implications.

I think there is a prevalence of this in schools at the moement in general - many teens "do not fit or conform" and have associated issues, concerns or beliefs about things. I remember self harming in school - others did as well and I am in my 50's . Binding is not abuse if you are not forcing them to do it - having the right equipment to do it means risk of harm is minimised rather than them wrapping themselves tightly and causing rib or other damage. I think the key is keeping the conversations between the girls and you as their parents open and non judgemental, consider things together and take a slowly slowly approach

How likely is it that 2 siblings would both be transgender - which is supposedly very rare condition?

Your gut feelings about this seem pretty sensible. Very important to tell both kids that you love and support them whatever happens.

Camhs may or may not be helpful. I would want a clinical psychologist experienced in teenagers with eating disorders or similar to help you kids. Not a school counsellor who has attended Stonewall training.

This is a really interesting read.

quillette.com/2020/01/17/why-i-resigned-from-tavistock-trans-identified-children-need-therapy-not-just-affirmation-and-drugs/

Trust your instincts as a parent - you are right to be very uneasy about all of this.

Re self harm - try Young Minds - they have a helpline and lots of good information

GP and CAMHS are unlikely to question, or watch and wait, but will follow a pathway of referring to the Tavistock. Inform yourself of the views of whistleblowers from that service and your rights as parents - your eldest may be deemed to have capacity to make treatment decisions without your consent.

Thanks everyone. Yes we are going to avoid cahms or try to for now..

I picked up on a couple of things just trying to ve observant..
Last night my wife took the oldest daughters internet away , so she can only spend 3 hours per day in total on the net.. which immediatly trigged a very quietly enraged resonse she dose, but
This resulted in dozens of cuts up her arm.
As we found out today.
She didnt hide it from my wife she intead almost 'posed' with them alone with her mum as if to subtly attempt for her to spot them all over her arm.
In essence she was stating "look, this is what happens when you make me mad".
I feel she is fitting the checklist of parental abuse also based on her other behaviours.

Its largely gone unoticed because we thought it was autism traits. She hasnt been tested yet but it was thought she was on the spectrum.

She also has a hall pass at school because she treats teachers the same way. She storms out of classes etc shuts down in anger. So was given a hall pass on account of her suspected condition.

If things dont go her way or if shes in any way upset for example she throws these silent but deadly hissy fits. What do you guys think and how would we counter this?

Could you consider moving them to a different school? I went to a single sex school and it was a wonderful experience in accepting my femininity. From what I hear from people who went to mixed schools I can understand why teenaged girls might want to be Male.

Or maybe you could take a family gap year? I know someone who did this when their son was suffering mental health problems. They lived off grid for a year, he came back very confident and balanced. If we’re going to be blunt sticking a large group of teenagers together every day for years isn’t exactly conducive to good mental health.