Both our daughters are claiming to be trans

[112200aa]

Hi there.
I have 2 daughter's 12 and 15 years old.
For quite some time now they are both claiming to be transgender. I though this phase would pass but it hasn't and has esculated to minor self halm.
Arm or hand cutting .

The youngest of my two daughters is now claiming her name is zack. And the other wants to wear some kind of body bonding thing that squashes her boobs in. Which would obviously deform her.
I think all this is due to friends/crowd they are following at school. And my wife and i are at a loss of what to do. I do not belive either of them are transgender. I belive one may be gay ,the oldest one but they seem to be following the ques of children at shool ,one in particular.

Its starting to wear me down and im loosing sleep.
Any advice at this point would be greatly appreciated.

What do you mean 'fitting the bill for parental abuse' ?? Or did you mean to say for a personality disorder?

I think you need to tell her to stop being a petulant little shit and that if she thinks cutting herself (scarring herself for life) because she isn't allowed on the internet is acceptable behaviour then she has a bloody screw lose and clearly more to worry about than being trans. Just because your kid has stuff going on, doesn't mean you tolerate manipulation. Or bad behaviour at school.

You need to make it clear emotional manipulation won't be tolerated. I'd totally take away her internet as punishment for a couple of days. Make it clear her manipulative behaviour will only come back to bite her on the ass tenfold.

Do you think it might be wise to have her see a gp about a possible underlying personality disorder? If so i would definitely tell them about her cutting: as a form of manipulation. I could be wrong but I'm sure I read self harm is common amongst young BPD sufferers...

Really though some sort of professional view might be ideal. I know you worry about them bolstering her idea that she is trans...but she is hurting herself so you really can't just let this slide unfortunately.

I'd move their school to an all girls school if possible and heavily filter internet access.

I have some recent experience with a very similar situation and cut out all internet access to the extent that my Dc had to text me to ask for ten minutes of screen time if they were doing a research exercise on their phones at school. Four months later and no longer having any access to those forums and DC says it was just the stuff they were reading and being told by people on line and now they feel like they were being groomed.

My Dc's issues started with animee..

Even if it is a phase - which seems unlikely, but I suppose possible

The figure for children where it IS a phase they grow out of is around 80%. Hardly "unlikely". The social contagion aspect of this is extremely prevalent.

Watchful waiting is by far the better approach than plunging headlong into irreversible drugging and potentially surgery. OP is very right to exercise caution and care.

The school is partly trying to add pressures even suggesting we let her bind. I actually feel letting her bind is child abuse.

Has the school been "trained" by Stonewall, Allsorts or Mermaids?
If so, be very, very careful. These are aggressive partisan lobby groups who deliberately misrepresent the Law to suit their agenda, not the best interests of children.

Look at Transgender Trend as pp recommended. Run by parents like you for parents like you.

Look also at the www.piqueresproject.com/

This is a resource by a group of girls who all identified as male and 3 out of 4 of them took testosterone but have now detransitioned and identify as girls again, very interesting stuff, their resource section has links to a lot of press articles on transgender topics. There are increasing numbers of detransitioners now telling their stories .

I feel for you.

Transgender trend is the first stop. Check whether your school is a Stonewall/Mermaids champion and see if you can swap her one to one that isn't. Be loving and supportive and keep communication open.

Get her tested if you haven't already for autism.

My friend has an 18 year old with ASD and he called me recently to express his concern that his lad was getting really, really depressed. He wasn't coming out of his room, or attending college, and spoke about self harm. My friend and his wife are doing everything they can to get him the help he needs. But I was reading around the internet looking for articles for him to read, and found that as many as 40% of young people with ASD have anxiety disorders and 20% of young people with ASD have depression.

www.autism.org.uk/about/health/mental-health.aspx

(I have anxiety and have suffered depression in the past, but not self-harming).

I have a 13 year old daughter and she has the normal teen strops. She is not on the spectrum or has poss MH issues/poss GD I cannot fully understand your predicament...but I usually ask her to think carefully about the statements she is making and if she means them...after a while she says, sorry, I was angry/frustrated. Always offer hugs and encouragement. Say, I know you are angry, let's figure out what we can do about that. My teenager always presumes I'm not listening to her if I cannot respond immediately. I say, although you are bursting to talk to me, I'm doing something important, but let us find some time and space so I can fully focus on what you are saying. And make that time immediately after you have finished your task.

Hi all . Someone here mentioned anime.
@Kjhkj mentioned anime.
And yes my daughters have both been huge anime fans for years. I wondered if that contributed towards it.
As for taking a gap year or anything like that , these days the schools would litrally put your head on a spike.
And someone eles mentioned be wary of certain schools that have been lobbied to by those groups. Yes i believe this school may be one.
They seem to get very involved. Taking internet completly would also trigger problems with the school. She still hasnt gotten it back at all yet.
I didnt ecen mention shes borderlined on an earing disorder as well. It seems all her friebds are foing it and its all the rage.
Im 37yo but im sad to say im from regional australia. And im pretty old fashioned.
None of this sits with me well and my marriage is also falling to bits because of it. This country and schools stop you from any real parenting. Basically im being told i cant do anything. About anything. So now ive thrown up my hands. Fine i guess i cant be a parent. So i wont even try or eles it will be me in trouble.

Made an account just to respond to this. Can I just say, whoo, that signup process is a little bit of a nightmare.

This is.. going to be a long one, and I apologize for that.

When I was 12, I was a gifted student. I was getting straight As, I was in extracurriculars, I painted constantly. But I was also transgender. And I was terrified for how my parents would take it. They just... Did not take it. They told me it was because of the people I hung out with- I didn't actually know any other transgender people, only a lesbian who frequently had a good laugh calling me a slur or two, bless her heart- Told me it was a phase- Then treated me worse the longer it went on, realizing it wasn't a phase-, told me I needed to just sort myself out, was confused, was angsty. My father particularly. It ruined.. a lot. I felt like a monster. I genuinely thought my father hated me because of something I couldn't control. Which wasn't quite the case- He didn't hate the ideal of me he had built up. A straight, non-transgender daughter who would wear a lovely white dress on her wedding day. He didn't hate that ideal. But he hated that I wasn't that ideal. He couldn't cope with the fact I was a person, with my own thoughts, opinions, identity, life.

I thought my parents didn't love me any longer. I wasn't old enough, mature enough to be capable to see that while they still loved me, that didn't mean they couldn't treat me unkindly, couldn't hurt me. My grades plummeted. I dropped out of quite a few of those extra classes I used to pride myself in. Stopped drawing. My father assumed this was because of that phase, that confusion, that lesbian friend- so he isolated me. Isolation made me... I got worse. I thought he was punishing me for being sad, being alone, being transgender. Why would I spend time with someone who hated me, my 13 year old self thought. It hardly seemed fair that I do that. He got upset that I was distant, avoiding him. He thought it was because of that phase. He seemed more upset at me, so I got more distant, obviously he was upset because he had to have a disgusting tr*nny as a child, why would he want that. And so the cycle continued, with the occasional scream match or mental breakdown.

Eventually, I had a plan that I would just.. Never talk to him after I turned 18. If he wouldn't love me for who I was, why should I be around him, my little 14 year old self thought.

And then he developed terminal cancer. I tried to wear makeup and dresses. No dying man wanted a daughter like me. But it was still obvious, he knew as much as I did that I was putting on a show for a dying man. It took a year of him getting worse, calling me worse slurs while the tumors grew, while his hair fell out, while his skin grew yellowed and he grew thinner and thinner, for him to tell me that he loved me. He hadn't told me he loved me since I came out, almost three years prior. He used to say it everyday. I didn't think he did love me anymore. He told me, then, he loved me, and that he'd accept me for who I was.- Though he still hung on to the idea it may be a phase, that I may simply be wishing myself a different body due to my medical conditions. I didn't argue with him. I knew he needed that. He died shortly after. I wish the last years I had with him were better. The last years I had with him were the worst of my life. It took him realizing he was going to die with our relationship what it was to truly, really make it clear that he didn't hate me for being mentally ill, and suicidal, and transgender. I will never get the years I spent thinking my own father hated me back. I will never be able to replace the years I spent being yelled at by him, isolated by him, hurt by him in ways that I can't heal from. I want to make it very clear here, you will make your child's biggest memories of you be ones that made them hurt. Made them want to disappear, hide. Your children will get very good at hiding. Very good at hiding the chest binders they buy from you. Very good at hiding their emotions from you. Hiding what they do, who they talk to, who they are. It becomes a necessity in the environment you are cultivating. You will feel as though you don't have children, but two young people living in your home, people you barely know. And they will feel the same about you, but with added fear.

This isn't to say you're a bad parent. You're scared for your children, you want to do your best. That's what a parent is supposed to do. But you need to evaluate the choices you make now, because right now is one of the most critical times in their lives, and your choices will follow them forever. You don't get to opt out of being a parent.

As a parting note, here's some sources- trusted ones, mind you, with actual science behind them- about why accepting transgender children is so very important, if my own testimony is not enough. Please note that some of this does show and talk about detransitioned people and people who grew out of gender dysphoria- I really do try to not cherry pick my research.

www.huffpost.com/entry/when-parents-reject-their_b_872191
www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/01/young-trans-children-know-who-they-are/580366/
pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/137/3/e20153223
www.washington.edu/news/2016/02/26/transgender-children-supported-in-their-identities-show-positive-mental-health/
www.washington.edu/news/2019/11/18/among-transgender-children-gender-identity-as-strong-as-in-cisgender-children-study-shows/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria_in_children "If gender dysphoria persists into puberty, it is most likely permanent"
www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/
www.childrens.health.qld.gov.au/blog-gender-dysphoria-in-children-and-adolescents-is-not-a-phase/

Oswald I am very sorry at the passing of your father he doesn't sound like a "bad parent" or you a "bad daughter".

Your post screams at how immature you were and that's ok because at 12/13/14 you are immature you are meant to be.
For me it actually highlights why parents and HPs need to take the watchful waiting approach and monitor who is influencing their young mind.

You make lots of assumptions about your father's feelings and thoughts about you but admit this is what YOU believed he felt and thought not that he had expressed it. To me this seems like you needed your father to reject you in order to fit in with the trans agenda.
My emo younger self used to tell everyone my parents hated me as that fit in with the emo lifestyle...truth this they didn't care what I wore they treated it as a phase and waited until I grew out of it. They loved me very much and showed it.

Binders cause breast tissue damage and pain/breathing problems. They should NOT be used on young girls developing bodies.
As a parent giving children the facts and the truth is very important.
There is no science behind being trans. It is a mental illness as it's all in the mind and it needs treating as a mental illness. Just as any form of body dysmorphia is.
Humans cannot change sex.
Hormones and puberty blockers have lasting effects and come with risks.
To fully transition involves major surgery and the loss of reproductive capacity. This can never be reversed.
Children need to understand the consequences and as parents it's our job to explain this too them.

Unfortunately it's all the rage. Makes me so very sad, that it's seen as fashionable, because it's such a very very serious issue. But it only affects a small minority, so it shouldn't really be as prevalent as it seems to be atm. So sad. Such a sad journey for the people concerned.

Many of DS1's friends are either gay, bi or not sure. Two children in his year are trans. Which seems a small number seeing as it's a big school.

I wonder if their school is particularly too pro? Not the school itself but just that group of kids talking about it too much? Might moving schools or home schooling for a bit help at all?

Your eldest as ASD is even more prone to these feelings. And being led. And not being sure, and not fitting in. That's part of ASD. It's bad enough for NT (Neurotypical ) girls, 'normal' girls who at 15 many hate their bodies, haven't accepted themselves, high anxiety.

Many of the girls in year 11, doing GCSE's will feel this. Many in Ds1's year have Hugh anxiety. Quite a few self Harm. Makes me so sad.

But they aren't trans. See a pp who probably wouldn't have transitioned years ago. But do glad they didn't.

That's what the danger is. All these people transitioning, when they really shouldn't.

"She hasnt been tested yet but it was thought she was on the spectrum."

GP to action this ASAP?

First off, let me just tell you that I really appreciate your response. Frankly, I figured no one would respond to my silly ramblings, haha.

Just to be clear, this wasn
But, Oh no, my mother actually told me about a lot of his feelings after his passing! He truly wanted to fix me, and he verbally said he hoped it was a phase, or based on my other medical conditions (I was kind of a sickly child, which is a hell of an understatement). If you look closely you can see which ideas were just me being a teenager, and which ones were what my mother talked about after his passing, though I am totally welcome to show which is which if need be, text has always been difficult for me- I'm much more comfortable writing traditionally.

My dad, outright, did not accept who I was. This isn't a jab at him, that's just.. how it was. And absolutely, I was immature. I was a child who didn't understand why my father.. Didn't quite understand. The last thing I wanted was rejection- That's why I started wearing those dresses, in his last year, if not to.. make his last few months better. It also might be good to note that binders only cause damage if worn for over 8 hour periods, particularly in hot weather- Essentially the same risks as sports bras. Which, by the way, you should talk to your children about. Some bras really shouldn't be worn for long periods of time and it's never talked about and nobody is warned when buying it? Very concerning- but, ah, I'm digressing. Also, medically, being transgender isn't considered a mental disorder or illness, but it's understandable you think so.

Would you mind elaborating on what you think the trans agenda is? I've heard it a few times but I still don't fully understand what people mean when they mention it- it's always said so vaguely.

Anyway, no one was influencing me, either, certainly not at the end there, as I was homeschooled to avoid such things. The parenting tactics (isolating me from people who could "influence" me, telling me its a phase, ..educating.. me about Rapid Onsent Gender Dysphoria) didn't fix me, it just made me feel disconnected from my parents, and suicidal. And here I am, after, still transgender.

I really would like to ask you look at the sources I showed in the above post (and below) but I understand it's a lot and we all have busy lives these days- now more than ever, it seems, with making sure to get lysol and masks in case of that coronavirus stuff getting worse.
time.com/4424589/being-transgender-is-not-a-mental-disorder-study/
www.nytimes.com/2018/12/06/opinion/trans-gender-dysphoria-mental-disorder.html
www.webmd.com/sex/news/20190529/being-transgender-not-a-mental-disorder-who-says

Akin to treating being homosexual as a mental illness, treating transgender identity/transgenderism as a mental illness actually has adverse affects. Also! I do agree that children need to be well informed about the risks of hormones and surgeries- But being transgender as a child involves neither of these. Nobody wants 8 year olds on hormones, that's just silly. Calling your child Zack and letting them wear jeans is not at all the same as going "Whelp! time to hack off some parts, I guess!", y'know? It's all about being rational while still supporting your child.

Hi OP. There are some excellent support groups for parents like you:

https://www.bayswatersupport.org.uk

https://m.facebook.com/ourdutygrp/

Binding is dangerous. 80% of kids desist if they are supported via watchful waiting. I would avoid camhs as they are likely to just affirm. There is some good advice and not so good advice here. These links should help.

I am with safe schools alliance. Binding is dangerous and can damage developing breast tissue. AsD is a big red flag here and the internet will not be helping. https://safeschoolsallianceuk.net

https://www.transgendertrend.com/current-evidence/

aw damn, i accidentally deleted something after the "wasn" and i completely forgot what i was saying there. Whoopsie. ignore that if you can!

Your father didn't accept you as a boy but he accepted you as a person and his child.
I agree with him not just as a parent. Reason is you are not a boy you are female which doesn't change no matter what you wear or how you present. That's your belief but you cannot expect or demand others accept your belief and agree with you. I don't believe in God. I accept people's choice to follow religion but I will never believe in the Almighty.

Sports bras are not binding. They are designed to be worn for only the period of time required not 12 plus hours or more. They do not restrict breathing or course pain if fitted correctly. Plus they are not their to hide a normal part of female anatomy.

I can see why your father wanted to "fix" you. He had life experience which you didn't at 15. He could see what damage you could do to your body and mind and didn't want that for the child he loved. He didn't want you to be judged or bullied or disadvantaged by what he saw was a phase but one which could have irreversible damage.

Of course feeling born in the wrong body is a mental illness even if it's not treated as such. Hating your body and wanting to change it in drastic irreversible ways does not show a healthy mind.

You are very naive to think hormones for an 8 yo is bad but not for a 16 yo. Both have developing bodies and minds both are still children with limited life experience and both still need guidance from parents to ensure they make good life choices.
Parents are announcing their child is trans as young as 3 yo and then putting them on a path they can't get off.

The trans agenda very much focuses on a way of life that MUST be accepted and all demands adhered to regardless of others. It uses emotional control and loopholes in the law to force others to join in with their beliefs. It uses violence and intimidation when the these don't work.
Oh and the lies.
Humans cannot change sex yet this lie is sold to young people that they can and all their problems will be solved. This causes untold damage once they realise they are still Male or female despite their efforts.

It also uses isolation. The amount of Twitter posts I have seen from adults encouraging children to step away from their parents, that they will be their mummy now is damn scary. They also advocate using self harm and suicide threats to get their parents to cave and do whatever they want.
This is a MAJOR SAFEGUARDING issue yet we are not allowed to question it because any question is apparently teansphobic.

Any group or cult which advocates coercive control, isolation, self harm and has a focus on children should be monitored and shut down but the trans movement is allowed to continue despite what common sense is telling us all.

Akin to treating being homosexual as a mental illness, treating transgender identity/transgenderism as a mental illness actually has adverse affects.

Being homosexual is a sexual orientation based on which sex you are attracted to. It is NOT about being born in the wrong body or wanting to have drastic life changing surgery so your body fits with the picture in your head.

See this is the problem. Being gay is not the same as being trans and when you lump the 2 together it blurs the lines.

This need to fully accept trans is changing sex without question means so many people are being denied the proper mental health support they need and deserve.

I don't think that being transgender and being homosexual are at all similar.

I think this because, as a teenager ( well from about aged 8 till about 20) I experienced a lot of things that today would be recognised as gender dysmorphia. I called myself David. Whenever I dreamt, it was as a boy. (Still do sometimes ) i loathed my body ( still rather a male one but hey ho) ( ideally one with great althetic prowess while we are at changing my body)

But I wasn't a boy, I am female. And that's just how it is, that's my body. It says nothing about my likes and capabilities.

I think , from listening to homosexual people that sexuality is pretty fixed whereas , listening to people with gender problems like myself, gender identity is much more fluid.

I am so glad I lived through a time when trans wasn't an option, so I avoided "treatment" that includes major surgery and the requirement for medication for life.

It's normal ( as I am not weird ) and in part reflects bullying by society, a need to fit in somewhere

My parents helped me tremendously. Helping me be me, supporting me doing things that were considered "not for girls" by most of the world around me. At that time, mending cars and reading sci if

I wish most trans children could be persuaded to wait. Not to do it. Years later a few might still want it. If that's the case, carry on! Hopefully most wouldn't.

In the end many would realise, like a pp, they could still be a woman and not dress that femininely, be techy and fix cars.

The sad sad thing about being trans is that you want something you can't have. You want to be .... say a man. But you are actually a woman. And no operation changes that fundamentally.

Wanting something you can't have is hard, and a very lonely journey.

Some of them might just decide they were gay or bi, or just a bit different? And all of those would be a much easier life journey!

Makes my heart genuinely weep!

i have two asd daughters, now 14 and 16, the younger of whom IDs as trans but 2+ yrs zgo they were both wearing binders etc. We cut internet pretty much entirely.

I’m on bayswater support where there are quite a few parents of trans asd kids.

much of the support that cahms provides can be good but it is essential to establish firm ground rules. Typically the neurodevelopmental people are safe, in the sense that they wont affirm.

@112200aa I am so sorry this must be very hard. We have a young trans female in the family and it is very difficult.

My personal feeling is to go slowly, assist them as much as you can without accelerating anything (clothes, hair cuts etc) and wait and see where it all goes.

Hum , Italian, I wonder if clothes and haircuts are things to let ride ( as not that important) whereas binding etc is dangerous. I was given free reign in clothes and such . although I accept that was pre internet in a much more gender fluid culture ,