Is this ski job package acceptable or exploitative?

[Johnogroats]

My DS has just had a an interview for some ad hoc work in a ski resort, supporting a nationally known brand. The package is as follows

1. 9 days work comprising 2 days acquaint (you need to get to know the place and introduce yourself to ski school, hire shops etc) and then 7 days with a school trip. You'd be up about 7 for breakfast, escort them to hire shop, take them to lessons, be available generally. I think there is some free time during the day but you'd need to be on the phone and deal with any issues immediately. At the end of the day you'd collect from ski school, sort out issues with kit, help with queries, take to dinner, organise evening activities - some or maybe most nights you'd finish about 9pm.
2. Pay £130. This is per week, and I think that means the full 9 days.
3. All meals
4. Ski kit and ski pass and insurance included. As is accommodation which is likely to be in a shared room.

Travel to ski resort included.

Obviously he doesn't have to take this job, but at the moment I am struggling to see how it is potentially legal. It would be a UK contract - he'd be a worker I think - but rules on working hours in the country concerned may also be relevant.

Any thoughts? Even if you regard it as a "free holiday" with a few additional duties, a few coffees and beers would have you in the red!

Who is the UK employer? If they are telling them to say he is an escort not an employee is sounds like it is either not counted as work or illegal. As mentioned unpaid interns are permitted. Working time is a red herring. If that was applied strictly there would be no school trips.

Apologies. Don't know what I was thinking when I posted. My first sentence is wrong.

As this job is outside the UK, NMW does not apply. NMW only applies to time spent working abroad if you spend at least 50% of your working time in the UK.

France has a minimum wage but, unlike the UK, France includes benefits in kind in minimum wage calculations. So ski kit, pass and insurance are all included in determining whether he is paid the minimum wage, as are accommodation and meals, although the calculation can be complex. Italy, on the other hand, does not have a minimum wage.

This has been going on for years OP
‘Working holidays’ as you say he doesn’t have to take it but I’d be surprised if there was anything Illegal about it.

It’s a mainstream travel company. Obviously I’m not going to name it here! Being told to say he’s escorting is about avoiding visa issues (ironically he’s an eu citizen anyway). He’s not an intern. The job is advertised as such. And I know that many jobs (my own included) ignore working time regs, but it does seem a bit stark in this example!

How does he feel about it?

I did some "free flights and accomodation and a bit of cash thrown in" type work in uni holidays and was quite happy with the arrangement. If I hadn't been I would have turned down the work

I’m sure you’re right, but would love to understand the basis for it. He’s applied for other very similar jobs with very similar T&C and they pay a lot more (300 and 400). The problem for him may disappear if he gets one of those, but I’m still trying to understand the legal rationale. At the mo it seems to boil down to “because they can and always have!”

Ultimately does he want a cheap ski week or not? It's clearly not a very lucrative in cash terms but if the alternative is paying for a ski trip it could still be quite valuable.

It does sound as if it's a bit of a rip off - along the lines of the old catered chalet contracts.

It doesn't sound as if he has to do much though. Probably the main work will be getting the kids kitted out, sort out passes, directing them to ski school on the first day.

After that 4 hours of skiing each day is decent and he may get longer I guess.

Companies such as Crystal now have 'proper' contracts with the pay being better but would involve more work.

I think there is a seasonaires group on Facebook which may be worthwhile looking at - or ask on Snowheads.

I imagine he’d get quite a bit of free time/ski time. The teachers will take responsibility for the kids but they don’t know the area, they don’t know where the hire shop is, where to meet for lessons, etc so he will be herding them round at the beginning and possibly end of the day. If he looks at it as a free ski holiday it’s more attractive?

I've done this job, as recently as 2023. It's bloody hard work and those conditions are a rip-off. My last job (for a UK company) paid €130 a day plus transport, room and food, a lift pass and ski hire. The travel company is not paying for the accommodation and food or at most they are paying a token amount The hotel or hostel will usually cover the cost of the teachers and the rep in order to attract parties of 50+ kids so deducting this at retail price from the wage is a con. Likewise the cost of travel - often the travel is on the company's own coach or aircraft, so the marginal cost of adding one passenger is minimal.

My work day in resort started at around 07.00 and finished when the evening activities finished which was usually around 22.00 but on the arrival and departure days I worked from about 05.00 until midnight. I skied on 3 days out of 7 in resort for no more than 3 hours each day. The rest of the time was taken up sorting out issues with suppliers, preparing the next day's activities, book keeping, trying to track down lost phones and wallets, replacing lost kit, sorting out ski school issues and managing the teachers' demands and expectations.

Is the arrangement described by the OP legal? Probably not - hence the comment about being told to state that he's "escorting" the group. Ironically, as an EU citizen, he won't be asked the purpose of his visit and is actually entitled to work in the EU, but if he effectively is "working" then he is entitled to at least the minimum wage (or in some countries the collectively agreed wage for the job) and his employer is supposed to comply with local rules regarding taxation, social security, insurance and healthcare contributions and so on. The teachers are in a different position as they are employed by the UK school and can legitimately claim to be volunteers and escorts.

Thanks @Havanananana thats pretty much in line with my expectations (having spoken to a few people). And agree that teachers are in a very different position - no it’s not a “holiday” for them but they are paid a salary! Would you mind DM ing me the name of the company you worked for? Or any others you’d recommend. Thanks v much. X

I’d look as this as an experience,
not as a job. I’m sure he’ll have a great time.

I ran the trip with Skibound. The staff were rarely on call and did not liaise with hospitals for us. On arrival/ski day it was busy but very little other than that. It was a great job and I’d do it for £130 a week. It’s a doss job, unlike working in the kitchens.

Self-employed / contractor or employee?

I think he’d be defined as a worker. But no contractual documentation has yet been received.

The fact that he's expected to pretend he is "escorting" and not working is a pretty big indication that the whole thing is dodgy and is likely to be an off the books, cash in hand situation.

I did several stints working at summer schools where we would have days working from 8am til 11pm. Teaching in the morning, sports on the afternoon, evening activity or house duty. Board included so wages not great but it was such a blast!

As an ex- teacher, I agree with all
of the above.

It’s only a week and sounds like a great experience all round. Yes, it’s tiring but it’s only for a short period of time and will look great on his CV. The teachers are responsible for any issues with the children.

@Hatty65 "I'm a teacher, rather than a lawyer, so can only point out that he will have no responsibility (legally) for the students. The teachers will have that, and there will always be a member of staff with the students. If one is injured then the teacher will be responsible for liaising with school, parents and hospital and accompanying the student - they will not expect a tour rep (of any age) to do so. The most he will need to do is let the ski company know."

As an employee of the travel company, the rep has the legal responsibility (on behalf of the company) for the entire group should anything major occur that impacts the group. The travel company will have contracts with the local suppliers (accommodation, ski rental, ski school etc) and as such, the tour rep is their person on the ground and has the legal responsibility to ensure that activities are conducted safely and that the trip runs smoothly. Teachers are there "in loco parentis" for each individual child but the rep is there to assist the teachers with practicalities, to organise, translate and mediate should issues arise.

The rep will be supported by the Head Office team, but their actions and decisions on the ground can have serious legal implications for the company and for the rep. That this company appears to want the rep to pretend that he is not a real employee should be setting off alarm bells. Who would be responsible for any legal issues should they arise and who is carrying the liability insurance?

Most travel companies now employ their reps on decent, legal contracts - in order to obtain working visas for non-EU staff they usually have to show the contract to the local authorities. These contracts include items such as free room and board (or a fixed, regulated deduction for this) and the legal wage for the job, in addition to paying the compulsory insurance, healthcare and pension contributions.

But he is clearly not being employed as a rep. Reps tend to stay the season in resort, not come out for a week attached to a school group. It sound like more of a liaison/helper role than a fuly fledged rep role

Reps for travel companies that specialise in school groups do work for one week at a time - they often travel out and back with the group. English state schools are only allowed to make these trips during school holiday periods, so in effect these reps can only work at Christmas/New Year, at half-term in February and around Easter. There is no work for them in resort for the rest of the time and no employer is going to pay for them to remain there doing nothing.

The job title is irrelevant - if he's employed in any capacity then he's an employee and as such represents the company on the ground. If he is the person from the company who has been allocated to that specific school group and is tasked with organising and liaising with the teachers and the suppliers then he's the de facto rep. This has legal implications for the company - there are legal obligations such as pay, conditions and insurance to consider, and there are liability issues. This also has implications for the "employee" in terms of what he or she can legally do, in terms of the need for a working visa, registration with the tax and health authorities and so on and that person's own health insurance and liability insuance.

There are many companies that do everything by the book, obtain the necessary visas and insurances and that pay their employees correctly, but the OP's son appears to have run into a company that does not do this.

Is he working just the 9 days, or does this repeat throughout the season?
If it's just a one-off event, I don't think I would be too fussed as long he is covered by insurance if anything goes wrong.

My son is not doing ski repping but is currently working on a gap year “job “ in the uk where there are no set hours but includes board and lodging …if you were to view it as a “job” then it would not meet minimum wage requirements but it helps to see these options as experiences that are giving YP ways to develop skill sets and make them more employable for proper “jobs” . When he was looking for this work , this low wage, no fixed hours seemed commonplace for what he is doing ( working as a gapper in a boarding school). Your son doesn’t have to go and he could hold out for more formal/ paid work but this isn’t official ski repping by the sound of it, it’s more like being a “helper” , similar to how someone might pay an individual to babysit or pet sit or to do casual work - we don’t classify that as “work” in the same sense. A similar comparison might be the type of gap year abroad schemes where you are classed as a “volunteer” in places like Asia but get given free board, lodging and a nominal “pocket money “ payment amount. There are numerous summer camp type jobs eg. Camp America that you might consider exploitative in terms of number of hours worked if you only look at it from the wage perspective.

I did a similar job years ago with my old school. I got paid nothing just all expenses trip paid !

Does he want to go for the experience /cv? If yes then go. If no then look for somethjng else