My employer are threatening legal because I'm refusing to work my notice. How screwed am I?

[confusedlady10]

I know I am being a CF but have no choice, so this is NOT about morals and more about where I stand legally.

I've worked for my job for over 8 years (dead end call centre job) but leaving in a week as I got an offer elsewhere. The notice period is 3 months and didn't realise when I told my new employer because I didn't check my contract. Regardless 3 months notice for an entry level poor paid job is excessive, so it wouldn't have made much difference had I been aware as my new employer need me to start ASAP and wouldn't wait 3 months. I took the risk of my employer suing me as they are a multi-billion pound bank that can easily afford to replace me (and are actively hiring now anyway).

I've accrued 100 hours of holiday, and tried to use it up by booking on our work app but every date got declined due to them being short staffed. My manager called me and said they’d try and get around me leaving early by seeing if they can use my holiday or take it out of my final pay. However they said that after speaking to HR if they can’t then I’ll have to work my notice otherwise HR may go down the legal route and refuse to give me my p45 in order to start my new job. I emailed my manager later to tell them I’ve checked ACAS (after having second thoughts) which says they cannot legally use my holiday pay or pay to offset me breaking my contract and would have to sue me instead which I would have to accept them doing as I really need the money.

They haven’t replied so shall see what they say tomorrow (and I still have time to edit my message as it's out of hours and they haven't read it yet). Can HR legally refuse to give me my p45 for this or take my pay from me or refuse to pay me my owed holiday? And if they do take me to court which I cannot afford what is the likely-hood of me messing up my new job and references and do I have any legal help? I’m scared but don’t have a choice as my new job cannot wait 3 months for me to start so have no choice and only got my contract now to give my employer notice.

Many thanks!

Your posting history is interesting, OP

According to this you left the job over a week ago. To take a job in insurance. Another regulated field where any inappropriate conduct will be frowned upon.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/AMA/5442515-i-work-as-a-fraud-investigator-for-a-main-high-street-bank-ama?reply=148466051

Well not really, because my manager has agreed with HR I can leave so my new job won't be concerned with me breaking my contract if my old job isn't? Not really inappropriate conduct if my manager is happy for me to go and be my reference and confirm to new employers I really have left by X date which I will have? And yes in that post I put I left my role a week ago because technically I have by accepting this new job, I just hadn't confirmed my notice with current job until now. Why does that matter either?

So it's not incorrect then - you said exactly what I said. I never mentioned the OP or the job, I don't even know if the OP works in "financial services", I have an example of where a reference is mandatory.

"No one in the UK has ever been sued for not working thier notice period"

How can you state so categorically something that is patently incorrect?

Yes, no court can make an order compelling an employee to work their notice period, something encoded in statute (Trade Union and Labour Relations Act).

However, employers can and do bring legal proceedings against employees for not working their notice period. Very unlikely with OP - but cases have been brought, and won, by employers in this regard. In relation to higher value employees. For example, the Court of Appeal case of Sunrise Breakers LLP v Rodgers.

Almost certainly won't happen with OP - but to say no one ever has been sued in the UK for not working their notice period is yet another example on this thread of incorrect information being confidently asserted 🤦‍♀️

Obviously don't mention it to them, but if they do remember, make sure you check your ts & cs carefully, as you might not have to pay back, or may not have to pay the full lot back. My arsehole ex-boss, forgot to get me to sign the paperwork, so when I left I didn't have to pay a penny. Much to his chagrin. And my pleasure. Other contracts, have a sliding scale of what percentage of the fees you have to pay back, dependant on how long ago you completed the course. For example if you leave straight after the course, you have to pay the full amount. After a year it's only 80%, after two it's 50% and so on.

Again, incorrect. Or at least off point. (And irrelevant).

OP has said she works for a bank. A bank is in financial services and is a regulated industry. However, OP does not herself carry out a regulated activity, working in a call centre and not being in a senior management or another role requiring authorisation. As such, her old employer is under not on,igation to provide a reference.

And your point incorrect as regards OP, or at best, irrelevant.

Still, at least OP has found a solution

In future, @confusedlady10 , if you want online legal advice, you might be better posting on Reddit as the relevant UK legal advice subreddit is pre-moderated and requires relevant posting history. And irrelevant anecdotal posts that aren't legal advice are deleted

I did and ironically the advice on here was much better from HR employees although I had to wade through a lot. Thank you.

Sounds like a good outcome OP.

Taking employees to court over notice is incredibly difficult ans as I said in my previous comment they have to prove loss of earnings which is very difficult and costly.
It can only really be done with very senior and sales roles.

Best of luck in your new job x

Thank you! Fretted all night for nowt ahah!

Feel free to provide some case law on this.

I am pleased to hear about your update. It did sound as though they were trying to worry you. I do hope you will be much happier in your new career. Hopefully you can relax now. If they do put any pressure on them you could mention you will be looking into taking them to an industrial tribunal Hopefully they will just let you leave in peace. It sounds like the firm have had some advice of legal responsibilities. OP you are best leaving. I wonder if you will be going into their offices on your last day. I hope you get some presents from them. They have caused you a lot of stress. I am glad to hear you will soon start somewhere new. I am pleased you will be working for somewhere much better. All the best and you will a fresh start. You have been treated badly by them. A lot of what they were saying did not sound as though they were following the correct procedures.

Check the notice period in your new contract before you sign eh Op?!

I am a lawyer and I regularly litigate these types of disputes. A three month notice period is almost always reasonable for any type of full time PAYE job.

You might be "pretty sure" but you're wrong. Your credit score is meaningless, it's an arbitrary number assigned to you that nobody else sees in order to help you understand where your credit history may/may not be causing issues.

Lenders rank you according to their own, internal criteria based on your credit history. Not your credit score.

The credit score is neither arbitrary nor meaningless, otherwise they wouldn't be able to sell it to anybody. If you read the business websites of the two main providers Equifax and Experian, both of which I have worked for in the past, you will see that they sell the algorithms that they use to produce a credit score to companies so that they can shove their own data into it and produce the credit score which Equifax or Experian would. They will also take companies' customer data and process that for them, to churn out the credit scores. And you can buy lists of potential customers to send mail shots to which are selected on the basis of having a particular credit score range.

Credit scores are serious things. A bad one can give you all sorts of problems trying to access funds or paying higher rates for loans.

Id just swear down the phone and get sacked..... I'm petty like that though haha

Once again, it's the credit history that you are measured against.

From MSE, because I can't be arsed explaining it again:

While you can see your credit score as a number when you check your credit history, you don't actually have one single score. In fact, mortgage lenders, credit card companies and loan providers won't see a number at all.

They'll only see the information on your credit report, and use this alongside any details they've asked you to provide (such as your income) to decide whether you're the ideal customer.

First thing I do! This company seem really good though so I don't plan on leaving (I hope!)

Waiting for my references from my old employer, so I wouldn't have dared (although one could dream aha!)

Good advice 👍.

A good outcome OP. A comment on the course fees - I wouldn’t bring it up either, but please do put the money aside. If they still haven’t asked for it this time next year you can have an extra Christmas treat, but it’s not unusual for someone in finance to work out you owe the money several months after you’ve left, and they do have a legal right to ask you for it.

what a waste of court time.

what is the outcome after court?

Enforcing contractual rights is literally one of the main things the civil court service (as opposed to criminal or family) is for.

After judgment the debtor either pays up or enforcement measures are taken against them to get the money.

In a slightly different case I had once, an employee left a large employer abruptly, having downloaded all their confidential client information and database, and used it to set up a competing business in breach of his restrictive covenants. We sued him, he couldn’t pay the damages, and ended up bankrupt. That claim was about the misuse of sensitive confidential information rather than because he didn’t work his notice, but these claims are absolutely brought and won, and quite rightly so. Employers can’t have a workforce that just disregards their contractual obligations, with negative impact on the business. It’s business!

On the course fees, claw back provisions are quite common but it’s also quite common for HR to forget to enforce them. However, the limitation period within which the clawback can be enforced is 6 years from the date the OP leaves, so they could “remember” and require the course fees to be paid back at any time within that 6 year period.