Childrens contact with father

[AmberV]

I have posted on here previously. I currently have a non-molestation order in place against H for emotional abuse to myself and two children and also physical abuse to our son age 9.

My solicitor is asking what I want in terms of contact. Ideally, I would want him to have no contact whatsoever with either of them, but he is saying this is unlikely to get approved. He says however that if I agreed that dad can have contact, because the children are aged 11 and 9 if they didn’t want to see their dad then they can say they don’t want to and they won’t have to be forced to.

My son does not want to see his dad however my daughter would like to have contact. I just don’t know how this will work. Will this make my son feel even worse because my daughter is seeing the dad?
Would you do a contact centre
arrangement for our daughter and her dad?

I know what will happen. Dad will lavish gifts on daughter and take her to fancy places to still get back at our son and almost let him know what he’s missing out on. He will twist it round to everyone that ‘oh it’s not me I’ve done nothing wrong because my daughter still wants to see me it’s just my son that feels hard done by.’ I know this is how he’s going to put it to people.

He is not right in the head, he has no conscience for what he’s done, no remorse, no empathy, still trying to blame everyone else for his behaviour.

As yet I have not pressed charges against him, would that be another option and would that mean he has no contact? This option would also affect us financially as if charged he would lose his job and not be able to provide child maintenance.

Please advise, I need help

We don’t “press charges” in the UK: the police make a decision whether or not to charge and the CPS decide whether to prosecute based on the weight of the evidence. It sounds as though you haven’t reported the physical abuse of your children to the police, and you absolutely must. Concealing child abuse, for financial reasons or any other, is serious - if your children disclose it independently to e.g. a teacher or doctor and also that you knew about it and tried to cover it up, you’ll find yourself with far greater problems.

Whether reporting will result in your ex being denied contact will depend on whether he’s charged and prosecuted, the nature of the abuse, and whether a court feels it’s in the best interests of your daughter to have contact or not. In any situation where there’s been allegations of physical abuse of children then supervised access in a contact centre would be heavily advised, if not mandated by a court and you’d be supported to access one.

Insist on supervised and then be prepared to loose in court.

My abusive ex got contact through court. I was told I should give something as he would likely win. I gave supervised and was told not enough. I stood my ground and lost. But I know I did all I could. When my kids say they don’t want to go and why do I make them I say I have no choice. I don’t directly tell them but essentially they have to make disclosures to someone outside the family for anyone to do anything. My son has actually made disclosures and I know it’s been flagged to social services but they won’t act as I lost in court. But as a op says if you don’t fight the contact then they think that makes you a risk. I felt I had to fight so that when they are older and ask me why I didn’t protect them I can say I did everything I could but the system failed them.

if it helps my dd wants to go and my son doesn’t. He doesn’t feel he misses out if he ever stays home because he’s scared of his dad and no amount of gifts and days out will make that ok for him

Thanks for your replies. I did report the abuse to the police, it has been filed, they said without a witness statement from me they won’t pursue it. If he is found guilty of abuse in the family court, it’s my understanding that they can pass information to the cps to investigate ?

He will get contact, likely 2/3 nights every other weekend. It won't be supervised. You will have an order stating that you facilitate this and 50/50 holidays and that whilst the order doesn't apply to your son you are to encourage him to go. This will provide a loophole for him to take you back to court for you to prove how you encouraged him. If son says he doesn't want to go cafcass will speak to him and basically tell him and court that he has to.
Sorry but literally prepare yourself for the worst on this one.

No they won't find him guilty of anything in family court because they cant. So there will be nothing to pass to cps who won't be interested as it's already NFA'd

Mumshotel how do you know this, have you experienced it first hand? My solicitor has advised that because the children are older and able to make up their own minds, even if contact order was made, if they didn’t want to see their dad they wouldn’t have to

If you want to protect your dc why don't you provide a witness statement?

Yes I have mine are 10 and 14. Court started when they were 11 and 7. He assaulted mu son. I'm sorry but you need to prepare yourself. I got a barrister in the end. He even abused the social worker and she stood up In court and told them. He refused to work with them and never completed the parenting programme or dv programme they wanted to and even with thus evidence court still gave 3 nights a week contact and 50/50 holidays. It's hell and the court facilitated his continued control despite 3 non mol orders and them finding 'fact' that he has abused us. I'm waiting till they are 18 to leave the country. He is constantly trying to bring it back to court and accusing me of breaching the order which I never have but court still allow him to and I have to prove myself time and again.

He will take you for court for breaching the order. This happened to me and I then had to answer 3 charges including breaching the order, me being controlling/dv and child alienation. I was cleared of all but only after another year of court and £18k more in legal fees

Your solicitor is misleading you OP- at 11 & 9 your children cannot just decide not to see their father.

This is definitely not the case! Cafcass will listen to their wishes but if you're unlucky they will recommend your son has contact with him anyway even if he says he doesn't want to. Cafcass and family courts are very focused on making children have contact with NRPs even where there is evidence they have been abused/the child doesn't want to. At those ages the children definitely cannot decide themselves and if you don't make them available for contact you would be breaching the court order.

Mumshotel Oh my god this is seriously worrying me. With all the evidence you had as well. I thought it would be in my best interest for him to apply to court for contact and get everyone involved with their counsellor statements, gp records, police records, Children’s services records, school witness statements. But it sounds like from what you’re saying it will make no difference ??

would I be better to arrange with him out of court that he has them every other weekend or something and then if the children decide they don’t want to see him I’m not in breach of anything then?

I don’t know what the hell to do now after reading this, I haven’t got that kind of money to keep going back to court. And I hate the thought of having to force my son to see him if that’s how the court order goes.

donyour children want to see their father or are you having to force them ?

I just can’t believe this

Ironically the one he assaulted does but my oldest doesn't. The think is cos I stuck to my guns and kept saying he is a risk and he dragged it out. By the time the court order was finally agreed it was 3 years later and what my son had said in his confused and innocent youth was imposed when he was older and didn't want it. Don't trust cafcass they will not help you or the kids.
I dont see any harm in offering an order or contact informally between your solictor and him at least it shows you are trying. I started with this and I was accused of blackmail and so was my solictor. With queries of 'what doesn't she want to come out in court' 'funny how I'm suddenly not a risk'. But I knew 100% family court don't care about abuse and they would order contact anyway. He rebuted the offer knowing because I already had legal rep he had an opportunity to financially control and manipulate big time and the court welcomed this with open arms and facilitated it at every opportunity.

In the end social services told me 'give him what he wants' if you want any kind of peace. I guess they knew I was fighting a losing battle. The irony being. If I didn't agree to order I was still in control of him via courts. But if something happens to him in his care according to social services I knew the risk so I'm neglectful for not protecting him. Rock and hard place and abusers theatre. I feel for you and hope your ex isn't as bad as mine who is BAD. I'm not saying this to hurt you just don't expect anything other than the dad's wishes and rights to come first. I've accepted that no one cares. Just me.

The thing is you can't even have mediation be because the non mol is evidence of dv. So it's either agreement via solicitor, solicitor independently and mutually agrees an order and gets it formally registered at the court. Or battle in court. Lose your mind and end up with the same outcome. I'm so sorry love. Do you have an IDVA or DV worker. They really helped but have no sway. Buy helped me carry on.

To be honest I've since spoken to DV workers and social workers who say if you breach an order they just try and get it running again. It's not criminal court. But my ex was literally demanding I go to prison (which wouldn't have happened) he rang my work and the police and everything, the school etc saying I was breaching court orders. I was ok because I never. But I'm just trying to say he's in control so it's how much he pushes it. P.s you won't go to prison. But you will most likely have years of court dragged out and like me your children put on a social services plan due to 'toxic breakup' which basically meant they tried to constantly just persuade me to go back on the proof of abuse and control because me fighting for the truth and protection meant I was continuing a toxic lifestyle. Me not him. I swear it's changed me significantly and if I'm honest it's taken away my experience of being a mum so if you can nip it in the bud try. But get your solicitor to put something in the letter/order to say you still believe there is a risk but for the children you wish to move on. But if there is any concerns you will notify police and social services at the earliest opportunity for support and advice.

I'm incredibly sorry. I wouldnt wish family court on my worst enemy. I really hope you get a good outcome

so sorry Op but i echo most of the PP’s on here, don’t place your faith in Family Court, Cafcass or your solicitors advice. I speak from experience.

Sorry op also echo with most others.

Don't want to scare you but you've had some poor advice from the solicitor. 9 is a bit too young for "wouldn't have to go if they don't want contact". That's unicorns and rainbows.

Some personal experience - I went through fairly serious physical abuse. DC witnessed and were put in great danger during one incident. They were lucky enough to only got bruises and graze, but it could end up really bad.
When I did my personal impact statement for this incident, I asked the officer that I feel maybe because I had really bad injuries, the harm that has been done to my DC was completely overlooked. It just doesn't make sense to me. Then they told me unless it's very bad abuse towards the child, they will normally try avoid letting a child testify against one parent.
And I was advised to still follow the contact order. I can take it back to court but I honestly don't know what would be the outcome. It's not like last time I didn't have enough DV evidence... Sorry it sounds very negative but family court has no rainbows I'm afraid. I did get a few lovely judges though (also had horrible ones, like a lucky dip!)

What might be cheerful is that I am NOT following the order as advised after the incident DC got hurt. And I'm still here typing so not in jail for breaching a court order.

Anyway wish you the best outcome.

My son is starting to show symptoms of depression now we are following the order. He always says 'again' when I say he's due to go like it's not been enough time to recover. He will be so quiet in the day he is going and on the day he returns he clings to me and his sister. I don't grill him but he's told me that his dad asks him a lot of questions and makes him feel like he's in trouble. He also will only text me when his dad is out the house and says his dad takes his phone. He says he has to sit in the garden whilst his dad and girlfriend drink and criticise me and his sister. They ask him everytime he is there when he is going to move to theirs and he panics that he might have to and I have to support him with this. He has washes his hands of my daughter since getting the order and she had her pocket money in her little bank account emptied and doesn't get so much as a phone call on birthdays/Xmas yet my son is given expensive gifts. It's vile and petty and the sooner we can leave the country and start to repair the damage, the better. Ironically he hasn't turned up for contact and my son challenged him his reply was... you know how your mum gets really confused and forgetful. I'm not sure she's right.

Thanks for the advice. I find it truly unbelievable that this can happen. At least it’s saved me the stress of the courts, I’ve lost all faith in that solicitor I have now too

my solicitor was trying to make me put in a plan for child contact without going through the courts, maybe that’s why he said if they decide not to go at any point they don’t have to?

Tbh in your shoes I'd wait for ex taking me to court rather than take action first. Yes the one applies to court sometimes got seen as the one represents the child's best interest. However assume you are not going to offer something like unsupervised every other weekend, so court probably won't see it's best interest anyway!
He can take you to court. And after the process hopefully at least your older one would be 12/13, at that age not very likely they'd be forced to go.

I am so sorry to hear these stories of courts forcing children to see abusive men. Can I ask what reasons the courts give? How do they justify what seems to outsiders as such terrible decisions for the children?

i am also currently going through the family courts though having a better experience, so far, and my ex currently is not allowed any direct contact.

Wish44 do your children want contact with their dad? My daughter wants contact, my son who was abused varies what he says daily dependant on how he remembers his dad being. What has happened in the courts so far with you ? Did cafcass get involved and all the authorities?