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Legal matters

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Original poster

Nursery bill

26 replies

PlurplePeopleEater · 09/04/2023 08:29

Hi, long time poster - don't want anything identifying attached to my usual username.

DS attended a nursery some years ago and they are now chasing me for money they say I owe them, which I disagree with.

They are saying I owe upwards of £350 and are denying all knowledge of large payments I made in cash for around £200. One of these was for £150 and at the time I paid, the nursery staff said that she could not find the receipt book - at this point I had been using the nursery for a decent amount of time and had a good relationship with the staff we had a joke that I trusted her not to forget the payment for such a large sum and that I would collect a receipt next time I was dropping off/collecting DS. A receipt never appeared but I never really thought much of it at the time.

I had some financial difficulty and I was behind in paying his regular bill but made this large payment for summer childcare in one chunk in order to avoid adding to arrears. I was paying off the arrears gradually and wasn't made aware of any problems.

Eventually I stopped using the nursery but continued to make payments by bank transfer towards the arrears, keeping note of what I owed and stopping when his bill was cleared.

The nursery waited some time before contacting me (around a year) and then I received email and WhatsApp from them regarding outstanding bills.

We have gone back and forward over the past 4/5 years with them periodically asking for payment and me stating that the bill was clear. I went as far as having to go in to my old bank in person to have years of bank statements printed off and posted to me so that I could match up when I had paid with the invoices they were sending.

They outright deny any payments that I made in cash and as there is no receipt, I don't feel I have a leg to stand on.

The bill in question is from 2017 and they have emailed to say that If I don't pay it they will take legal action.

Just wondering if anyone can advise next steps. I can't afford to pay this money that I don't owe - I was certain the bill was cleared when I stopped paying, and I 100% know that I paid for the summer of 2017 in cash which they are now denying.

I am registered with a professional body for work and have to declare anything legal to them, I would prefer this not to go to court but I am a single parent on a low income - I can't afford to just pay it.

I have tried contacting citizens advice but their only suggestion was to contact the police re: missing cash which I feel should be up to the nursery, not me.

Does anyone know where I go from here? Worried about how I reply to them as I don't want to make myself liable for money I don't owe by responding so I haven't responded since they mentioned legal action.

OP posts:

Identifyingasadolphin · 09/04/2023 08:44

I would put it in writing to them along the lines of…My bank statements show that I paid regular monthly installments of x amount between the dates of a and b, totalling £….

In addition I came in on dates….and….and paid x amount in cash with a dialogue to (name of person) who stated that a receipt would be issued later when the receipt book was to hand.

My account has been settled in full.

If you continue to insist falsely that my two cash payments have not been formally accounted for on your system I will need to make it a police matter and file a report for investigation re your alleged missing cash sum of x.

RandomMess · 09/04/2023 08:54

I agree with @Identifyingasadolphin there are big issues with the way they were handling cash which presumably they won't want to look at unless the think that staff member was stealing from them.

crackfoxy · 09/04/2023 09:11

Identifyingasadolphin · 09/04/2023 08:44

I would put it in writing to them along the lines of…My bank statements show that I paid regular monthly installments of x amount between the dates of a and b, totalling £….

In addition I came in on dates….and….and paid x amount in cash with a dialogue to (name of person) who stated that a receipt would be issued later when the receipt book was to hand.

My account has been settled in full.

Exactly this

Foreversearch · 09/04/2023 12:50

@PlurplePeopleEater I agree with @Identifyingasadolphin but I would consider adding in the following.

In addition I came in on dates….and….and paid x amount in cash with a dialogue to (name of person) who stated that a receipt would be issued later when the receipt book was to hand.

If (name of person) denies receiving these cash payment I wish to raise a formal complaint against your business for theft. (name of person) was acting on the company’s behalf when I made these cash payments in good faith. I have repeatedly advised you I made the cash payments and to whom, I expect a full investigation to be carried out into the theft as I strongly susp3ct this may not be the only case where cash paid by other nursery users have gone missing.

Original poster

PlurplePeopleEater · 09/04/2023 22:52

Thank you.

I think responding and saying I will escalate re: the person I handed cash to is a good way to go, not sure adding speculation about if they have done it with others is helpful though as I have nothing to back that up and I would say it's up to them to decide that, not me.

My concern is mainly avoiding legal action against me if they insist I haven't paid - if it's her word against mine, do I really have a leg to stand on? They could argue that I had a history of not keeping up with payments.

OP posts:

Glitteratitar · 09/04/2023 23:16

What was the date of these bills?

prh47bridge · 09/04/2023 23:39

You can't stop them taking legal action. However, if they do, you don't need to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you paid. This would be a civil case which is decided on the balance of probabilities. Also, as they are the ones alleging you haven't paid, the burden of proof would be on them. All you can do is make sure you are clear as to what happened and have as much supporting evidence as possible.

MooseBeTimeForSnow · 09/04/2023 23:53

When did you make the last payment? Was it more than 6 years ago?

bicky · 10/04/2023 00:05

I thought debts like that weren’t able to be pursued after 6 years

WishingMyLifeAway · 10/04/2023 00:10

If this was more than 6 years ago I would be very careful about responding in writing as written "acknowledgement" of the debt can reset the clock. Doesn't apply to all debts though. If you think this might apply get some debt advice before responding further.

prh47bridge · 10/04/2023 07:47

Re the last three posts, the clock didn't start running until OP stopped making payments to the nursery. She was paying off arrears for some time after she stopped using the nursery. Even without those payments, since the debt appears to relate to summer 2017, the six years isn't up yet.

Once the six years are up the nursery loses the ability to take OP to court. That may well be why they are now talking about legal action - because they know they are running out of time.

Trendingtopic · 10/04/2023 07:57

Op, they may well go via the small claims court, it’s not expensive

I am not doubting your story but they are being very diligent now , as such habe you anything to show the balance was cleared? You say you were in arrears and stopped paying when it was clear, what was the communications at that point, on the arrears and clearance?

Trendingtopic · 10/04/2023 07:59

PlurplePeopleEater · 09/04/2023 22:52

Thank you.

It will be about the chain of written communications between you both.

ZirihePevzig · 10/04/2023 08:26

Someone stole the cash payment you made.

Of course it should be a police matter. That amount going missing can't be ignored by either you or the nursery. However if it goes to court the legal costs will far outstrip the amount of missing money.

I don't think any prosecution of the thief would ever be successful because it would be your word against theirs, but the fact that the theft hasn't even been reported even 6 years later doesn't look good for your side of the argument.

For future reference if the receipt book is missing you hang on to the cash until the receipt book is found, or get them to write on an ordinary piece of paper.

Trendingtopic · 10/04/2023 08:55

It’s irrelevant if someone stole the cash. The op said she cleared the arrears, as such there should be written confirmation of this.

CheeseMcKnees · 10/04/2023 09:04

Write back, give all details of who the cash was given to and advise if it cannot be located internally then you would like to get the police involved.

£350 from 6 years ago isn’t worth the hassle of them taking this to court surely?

Original poster

PlurplePeopleEater · 10/04/2023 09:31

To be honest, I still don't think the cash was stolen ie. pocketed personally by the member of staff I handed it to. If I go by the way they bill people and how long it took them to chase me for the "outstanding" amount I think it's more likely that they money has been received but not attached to me/ my bill if that makes sense - with no receipt written to back it up?

They are registered as a charity (not sure why or how but they have a registered charity no. on the bottom of their letters and email signature) so wonder if that changes things - is it possible they have an obligation to pursue this even if it might not be worth it with court fees etc?

The only solid proof I have of anything are the bank statements which show online payments clearing some of the arrears. Even some of the original correspondence regarding the arrears has now gone as it was via whatsapp and I can't find any backups of conversations of that far back.

Obviously after such a long time the details are not fresh in my mind either so I'm not fully confident they wouldn't catch me out if there was something I couldn't answer for or remember properly.

If it really is unlikely that they will pursue me in court then I'm not interested in involving police etc.I just don't want to go to court or be made liable for money I don't owe.

OP posts:

User198446725689 · 10/04/2023 09:50

If they are saying you owe over £350, and your cash payments were £200, what accounts for the other £150+ ?

Could there have been interest or charges for late payment? Do you have an actual statement from them?

I am wondering if the cash perhaps has been accounted for, and this is the balance from other charges.

MaverickSnoopy · 10/04/2023 09:56

I used to be a Childminder and DH has worked in early years for a long time.

Larger nurseries will use their legal team, smaller nurseries will usually use their insurance companies to pursue things like this, or their insurance company will at least provide advice. Small claims court is the standard advice.

What stands out to me is that you paid cash. If it wasn't stollen then there must be a paper trail on their side. Did it end up in petty cash or was it assigned to someone else's account. Surely their accounting would flag up that they had surplus cash if they had surplus cash. Perhaps it has not and it might have actually been stollen.

Original poster

PlurplePeopleEater · 10/04/2023 10:03

Could there have been interest or charges for late payment? Do you have an actual statement from them?

I have several statements and invoices - all of these show what I have been billed for and then payments made against the balance.

The cash payments do not appear on the statements at all, some of the online bank transfers made after DS stopped using the nursery are also missing, however I am not worried about these as I obviously have a solid record of these being paid if they take it further.

If interest or charges have been applied, they are not on the statements, I have never been told about them and they have not been brought up when I have disputed the amount owed.

OP posts:

Original poster

PlurplePeopleEater · 10/04/2023 10:07

*I remember that any time I paid in cash it was put in to one of those petty cash type metal boxes with a lock on it - no idea what happened to it after that and surely it's up to the nursery to pursue it if they think a staff member has been dishonest. I handed the money over in good faith to a person I knew and trusted - I have no control over their staff and how they handle the cash after that point?

OP posts:

RandomMess · 10/04/2023 10:14

I would flag to them that their statements of your account are missing x amount of online payments made and 2 cash payments totalling £350.

Ball back to their court to sort out their accounting issues.

MaverickSnoopy · 10/04/2023 10:27

So if I went into a cash box you can tell them that and ask what their process is with that cash. What I'm saying is when their end of year accounting was done then presumably they would have been £350 up.

prh47bridge · 10/04/2023 11:20

Being a charity doesn't change anything, no.

Re theft, you are correct. You handed the money over to an employee, from which point the money belonged to the nursery. If there was theft (as opposed to chaotic record keeping), the theft was from the nursery, not from you.

User198446725689 · 10/04/2023 11:50

This works very much in your favour … the fact that there are other payments missing and you have proof of paying those ones.

As @RandomMess suggests, just reply to them with factual statements. List the payments that you have made and they have not recorded, detailing both the unrecorded bank transfers and the cash payments. Ball back in their court.

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