power of attorney

[POAPITA]

I don't know if anyone remembers my old thread on this and I can't find it.

I'm one of 4 adult children. I do all the day to day care and financial management for my fully with it mum.

I'd been added aa a back up attorney for health and welfare without my knowledge and refused to sign the forms. Mum abandoned the whole thing then so no
POA in place.

Now she's done the forms with my older siblings and they have been paid for sent off etc.

The laughable and worrying thing is is that she still doesn't know what these forms are for exactly. She believes they are only for after her death which makes no sense for health and welfare. I've told her I won't be able to liaise with the GP for her if my siblings are POA but maybe that's only if she looses capacity? I don't know and neither does she. They didn't consult a solicitor in the end either.

The sibling who has POA sees her about 6 times a year and wouldn't have a clue when it comes to mums health. It's a joke. When anything happens to mum they will expect me to provide them with all the information and will get angry and say I'm unreasonable if I don't. I've been unreasonable my whole life according to them but I'm good enough to provide daily care. Once mum is gone I'll not need to have any contact with them and won't d

Sorry.
Won't do. The whole thing is a joke. I'm just venting here and I'm angry my parents didn't sort all this years ago.

One question though: there's no money for a funeral so how is that paid? No spare money to save and only state pension as income with no savings.

Funeral expenses are usually paid from the deceased's estate. Do they have any assets that could be sold after death to raise cash? Jewellery, antiques, collectibles?

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding but why did you refuse to sign the POA forms if you think you're best placed to have the POA? And why would you not provide the POA with relevant information as to your mums health and welfare if you have it?

Once she loses capacity decisions about her health and welfare will be made by her POAs only. She won't be able to consent to her GP discussing her health with you as she won't have capacity at that time, but even if you could liaise, you wouldn't be able to make decisions.

So the original poa had you as backup so only poa incase of existing poa death, then transferred to you?
You can have poa cancelled and re-done as long as your mum is still of sound mind etc so even though it's been signed and paid for this can be changed.
Poa for health is so if the person is needing a decision when they are not able it can be made on their behalf. Wealth can be for either the person can sign to have people help them and use poa to deal with finances while alive but maybe wanting help with bills etc or it can just be for once the person dies.
Has your mum got copies of what she has signed etc?
I'd probably ask to see how they've been set up and if it's what your mum wants then they can stay as is if it's not what she thought she was signing it can be cancelled and a new one done.

@Sunseed no valuables to sell and the house is still mortgaged (don't ask) therefore there'd be no money until the house was sold.

@sugarspices I didn't sign because it wasn't discussed with me and it was just assumed that I'd be their back up. Mum is pretty clueless about what the forms are and had signed to say it was effective immediately but she thought it wasn't effective until she was unable to make decisions. My siblings emotionally abused me for decades and made my life a misery. I don't have anything to do with them now and haven't for years.

@GhostsJulianforPrimeMinister mum doesn't really understand it at all. I do all her finances with her. My siblings have very little to do with mum and have no idea

She doesn't have copies, no.
Sibling is sending copies to the GP and whoever else. I assume the bank and mortgage company, DWP.

On the subject of funerals, you and/or your siblings will need to pay for it as I don't think your parent would qualify for a pauper's funeral at the cost of the council. Direct Cremations are the cheapest form of funeral. Might be worth looking into those and getting your mum to set a bit aside each month for this.

I just completed POA for my parent, forms are currently taking at least four months to register and they are legal until they are registered.

The Health and Welfare POA only kicks in when a person loses capacity and even then, depending on which option they selected you will still have input in any medical decisions.

The Financial POA can be used once registered with the consent of the person concerned. If you are concerned your mother signed without understanding what she was signing you can contact the Office of the Public Guardian. The last stage of the process allows for challenge again the Officer could give advice. I hope you sort this out.

Sorry are not legal until registered

I think they have been signed as effective immediately or now or however it is worded. I deal with day to day finances, shopping, online ordering so if mum loses capacity would the POAs have to give me the money to do her shopping for example? How does it all work in practice?

To use her bank account or pay bills on her behalf you need to have Financial POA otherwise you are technically doing something illegal and could face problems of someone queries what you are spending .

If they have received the registered copies back then they are effective immediately for financial but only when she loses capacity for health. It is probably worth ringing the Office of the Public Guardian for advice.

I completely get what a pain it is to have these held by someone who isn't doing the day to day support. It nearly happened to me but I managed to avoid it.

POA can’t be used first, until they’re registered- which is part if the process and can take months and secondly, until the subject of the POA loses capacity, and this has to be verified.
I don’t understand what you mean by you being the back up though. From what you’ve said, you would be the best person to be POA, and not them.

Thank you. So that's as I thought, I won't be able to do all the shopping etc without their say so. That should be fun when I explain to mum that I'm really sorry but I can't do that anymore and my siblings will have to sort it all out. She is reliant on me for buying all gifts, cards, wrapping paper, her weekly shop, top up shops, paying anything online like hills/invoices, paying the gardener. My siblings are not going to want to do this. I don't think any of them properly understand what they have signed.

I feel like you should have signed the forms. Your issue is clearly with your siblings but they were for the benefit of your mum.
If you do everything anyway why wouldn't you be POA?

Could you speak to your mum and let her know that unless you are her financial POA you won't be able to do all of those things for her? If she has capacity still then she can change the POA at any time. If you leave it until she loses capacity and then try to rectify the situation because she isn't being looked after it will be a lot more hassle!

@Houseplantmad I think I was the reserve attorney incase siblings couldn't or wouldn't do it. I can't remember the wording but my babe and address was entered on the form and it was expected that I would be happy to sign it.
I'm the youngest and was never going to be chosen as POA. They are significantly older than me.

As others have said the pPOA will only come into effect once your mum loses capacity. And it is also on a decision by decision basis too so she may have capacity to understand some decisions, but not others or capacity might fluctuate.

I think you need to sit down with your mum and explain exactly what a POA is. It gives the named person or persons the authority to act on your mum's behalf if she loses the capacity to act for herself.

They have to be registered, once it is registered your mum will receive her own stamped copy through the post. This can take up to 20 weeks and it is not legal before that. Your mum should keep that original and not give it to anyone else unless she loses capacity. She can make a certified copy to give to others.

as far as I know she has signed so that they are effective now, well once registered, before she loses capacity and that's where I get confused about things like access to her bank for shopping. I just pay for it then transfer it back from mums account to mine online. Same with all purchases.

If they have made you a Reserve Attorney then the easiest way to fix this is for the sibling named as current Attorney to step back and let you take over. I'm not sure how to do this and you would need to wait until it was registered.

Once it is registered the only way to change it completely is to cancel and start the whole process again.

No, that's not legally possible.

If she has capacity then she can choose to have others act on her behalf for certain things, especially if she finds things difficult but she can rescind that at any time and the attorneys must consult with her before making a decision on her behalf.

An ordinary power of attorney allows one or more person, known as your attorney, to make financial decisions on your behalf. It's only valid while you still have the mental capacity to make your own decisions. You may want to set one up if, for example:

you need someone to act for you for a temporary period, such an when you’re on holiday or in hospital

you’re finding it harder to get out and about to the bank or post office, or you want someone to be able to access your account for you

you want someone to act for you while you’re able to supervise their actions.

You can limit the power you give your attorney so that they can only deal with certain assets, for example, your bank account but not your home.

An ordinary power of attorney is only valid while you have the mental capacity to make your own decisions. If you want someone to be able to act on your behalf if there comes a time when you don’t have the mental capacity to make your own decisions you should consider setting up a lasting power of attorney.

Health and welfare is only effective when she is not able to make a decision. And you can preempt some things by completing an Advance Decision with her now if you want.

Finance can be effective from whenever she chooses, or when she is not able to make a decision, but I believe if she is still able to make decisions then she can if she wants even if she's made it effective immediately. Do you have third party access to her bank account (ie the bank knows about it?)?

The solicitor who drew up the POA should have the original, with certified copies going to the attorneys so they can register them with financial institutions. Do you know which solicitor they used? Also, I think POA are listed online with the OPG, you might try checking on there.

You only mention the health and welfare POA? That’s nothing to do with being able to do somebody’s shopping. And will only kick in if someone has lost capacity to make decisions.

A financial POA is different and doesn’t necessarily only come into force when someone loses capacity.

I think it’s crucial to have POA agreements in place (everyone should have them!) as it makes life immeasurably easier if someone loses capacity. I don’t quite understand why you don’t want POA but seem to not want anyone else to have it either.