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Legal matters

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Autistic son interviewed without appropriate adult

150 replies

taylorwhite883 · 17/01/2023 03:47

Hi my son who is 19 and autistic was not provided with an appropriate adult during the interview when he was arrested for breach of a restraining order which he confessed to in the interview.

He declined a solicitor at the police station so he had no support from anyone at the station during the custodial process and interview.

He was seen by a nurse shortly before the interview and then she gave the green light for him to be interviewed.

He is currently RUI and I was wondering what are the chances the confession could be excluded under S78 of PACE since this is a clear breach of PACE?

England.

Thanks.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 20/01/2023 15:55

So he's got a restraining order. He's autistic but seems to know where whoever he is harassing is online. That suggests he knows enough to know he's trying to make contact. Yet he understands a restraining order enough to understand he shouldn't be making contact.

This doesn't add up as him lacking in understanding. He understands what he's doing. That's why he's doing it.

He wants to continue to harass someone and is looking for multiple ways to do it - and thought he could get away with it being it was online.

The fact he's had his computer taken before for examination suggests that he's deliberately using the internet to bother people. He also understands enough that he didn't want his computer taken away for another 18 months.

This begs a question. At 19 and being on this high level of disability, I presume he's still living at home. Given you believe he's not not capacity to fully understand what's going on and the internet, and he's got form, why do you allow a vulnerable autistic person unfetted access to the internet?

What's clearly being demonstrated here is that you, as the adult who presumably has caring responsibilities on some level, isn't keeping a firm eye on what he's doing and instead are trying to push responsibility on to others for not making sure he has an appropriate adult

You can't have it both ways on this OP. Either he shouldnt have free access to the internet - which comes back to you - because he can't be trusted on it and he extremely vulnerable and doesn't understand what he's doing. Or you agree he has enough capacity and understanding to use the internet freely, in which case he fully understands what he is doing and is responsible enough for his actions and doesn't need a responsible adult in an interview.

You need to wake up and decide which it is, because this is going to be a long term issue with consequences. You can't infantilise him when it suits you at the expense of others or you need to face up to the fact that he's knowingly causing harm and distress to others.

What happens now, because one or both of you haven't taken responsibility, is a mess. One which needs proper legal advice. But you really need to take a long hard think about this and your role / relationship with your son and his access to computers.

It is not typical to have your computer seized for evidence. That says something really bad is going on. Perhaps you need to do some reflection on the impact on the victim in this too because it sounds like the restraining order issue has been going on for well over 18 months dating back to when he WAS still a minor who was definitely under your responsibility. You need specialist help and support but you also need to remove computers from the equation to limit opportunity for this to repeat.

I'm sorry for this reason, I do lack a certain amount of sympathy for you based on what you've said. The internet clearly isn't a suitable place for your son either because he's too vulnerable to go on it unsupervised or he's a risk to others. There isn't a middle ground here unfortunately.

ThePoshUns · 20/01/2023 22:55

Well put @RedToothBrush

Winter2019 · 20/01/2023 23:11

Felix01 · 17/01/2023 05:26

I know you love your son , but in the best way possible stop trying to get him off for his offences and instead try to get referral to MH services forensic practitioner. Hes becoming a prolific offender and until he acknowledges that and gets help he will keep on offending. Maybe some time without his computer will do him good, if you keep trying to cover for him get him off the offending will escalate and he will end up in prison/secure services for a long time.

This is not a one off thing if he's had his computer seized before. Autism does not always warrant an appropriate adult, a capacity assessment will have been done.

Yes,this. Looks like the OP is too soft on her son cause the poor boy is autistic 🙄 I say this as someone who's young daughter was assaulted by an autistic person! And he wasn't held accountable because "he didn't understand what he was doing" makes my blood boil....anyway, I know this wasn't what thread was about just glad police are actually investing.

Winter2019 · 20/01/2023 23:15

RedToothBrush · 20/01/2023 15:55

So he's got a restraining order. He's autistic but seems to know where whoever he is harassing is online. That suggests he knows enough to know he's trying to make contact. Yet he understands a restraining order enough to understand he shouldn't be making contact.

This doesn't add up as him lacking in understanding. He understands what he's doing. That's why he's doing it.

He wants to continue to harass someone and is looking for multiple ways to do it - and thought he could get away with it being it was online.

The fact he's had his computer taken before for examination suggests that he's deliberately using the internet to bother people. He also understands enough that he didn't want his computer taken away for another 18 months.

This begs a question. At 19 and being on this high level of disability, I presume he's still living at home. Given you believe he's not not capacity to fully understand what's going on and the internet, and he's got form, why do you allow a vulnerable autistic person unfetted access to the internet?

What's clearly being demonstrated here is that you, as the adult who presumably has caring responsibilities on some level, isn't keeping a firm eye on what he's doing and instead are trying to push responsibility on to others for not making sure he has an appropriate adult

You can't have it both ways on this OP. Either he shouldnt have free access to the internet - which comes back to you - because he can't be trusted on it and he extremely vulnerable and doesn't understand what he's doing. Or you agree he has enough capacity and understanding to use the internet freely, in which case he fully understands what he is doing and is responsible enough for his actions and doesn't need a responsible adult in an interview.

You need to wake up and decide which it is, because this is going to be a long term issue with consequences. You can't infantilise him when it suits you at the expense of others or you need to face up to the fact that he's knowingly causing harm and distress to others.

What happens now, because one or both of you haven't taken responsibility, is a mess. One which needs proper legal advice. But you really need to take a long hard think about this and your role / relationship with your son and his access to computers.

It is not typical to have your computer seized for evidence. That says something really bad is going on. Perhaps you need to do some reflection on the impact on the victim in this too because it sounds like the restraining order issue has been going on for well over 18 months dating back to when he WAS still a minor who was definitely under your responsibility. You need specialist help and support but you also need to remove computers from the equation to limit opportunity for this to repeat.

I'm sorry for this reason, I do lack a certain amount of sympathy for you based on what you've said. The internet clearly isn't a suitable place for your son either because he's too vulnerable to go on it unsupervised or he's a risk to others. There isn't a middle ground here unfortunately.

Absolutely this!!!!!!!!

dolor · 21/01/2023 12:53

Spot on @RedToothBrush.

Liorae · 21/01/2023 14:58

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ASmumreply · 21/01/2023 20:10

Appropriate adult uk website

Under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 Codes of Practice (PACE) police must contact an AA and have them present whenever the detain or question a child or mentally vulnerable adult.

My DS had one denied to him - you need to request full police disclosure.
Apparently the police in his case decided that he didn’t need one as he could
’read and write’. We were informed when he was arrested. Also have proof in the form of computer conversations with the police with us saying he needed an appropriate adult with him.

As with your DS he was spoken to by a nurse (who incidentally said she just wanted to give him a big hug). He was guided by the on duty solicitor to say no comment to everything. Whereas if either my DH or I had gone in as his AA we would have told him to answer all the questions as he had nothing to hide/ they would have got to the bottom of things quicker and he wouldn’t have been RUI.

gelatogina · 23/01/2023 12:07

@RedToothBrush exactly right

taylorwhite883 · 24/02/2023 10:22

Just a quick update.

My son was charged with breaching a restraining order however his solicitor contacted the CPS before court to explain to them that in his view anything that was said in the interview is unreliable evidence because there was no appropriate adult.

The CPS agreed and it proved fatal to the case against my son because the CPS decided a discontinuance of proceedings meaning that my son does not have to attend court.

The case could be restarted again in the future but this is most likely an end to the matter according to his solicitor who said the CPS rarely restart proceedings.

This goes to show that if the Police breach PACE then it can prove fatal since evidence could be excluded if it goes to court.

Thank you all for the advice.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 24/02/2023 10:45

taylorwhite883 · 24/02/2023 10:22

Just a quick update.

My son was charged with breaching a restraining order however his solicitor contacted the CPS before court to explain to them that in his view anything that was said in the interview is unreliable evidence because there was no appropriate adult.

The CPS agreed and it proved fatal to the case against my son because the CPS decided a discontinuance of proceedings meaning that my son does not have to attend court.

The case could be restarted again in the future but this is most likely an end to the matter according to his solicitor who said the CPS rarely restart proceedings.

This goes to show that if the Police breach PACE then it can prove fatal since evidence could be excluded if it goes to court.

Thank you all for the advice.

So does your son comprehend that he is harassing someone and will you make efforts to try and help prevent it?

It sounds very much like he's been let off on a technicality.

I feel very much for the victim being let down by process when they needed protection.

eatdrinkandbemerry · 24/02/2023 10:57

My son has autism and he would need an appropriate adult as he lacks capacity.
My daughter has autism and she wouldn't need an appropriate adult as she's got capacity.
You can't use autism as an excuse!

heartbroken40 · 24/02/2023 10:59

@taylorwhite883 if he can't be left unsupervised with a laptop/phone he will do it again.please keep an eye on him as this time he got off on a technicality but eventually he'll be caught and also think about the victim please, it must be terrifying for her. I only feel sorry for the victim here

ReadersD1gest · 24/02/2023 11:02

taylorwhite883 · 24/02/2023 10:22

Just a quick update.

My son was charged with breaching a restraining order however his solicitor contacted the CPS before court to explain to them that in his view anything that was said in the interview is unreliable evidence because there was no appropriate adult.

The CPS agreed and it proved fatal to the case against my son because the CPS decided a discontinuance of proceedings meaning that my son does not have to attend court.

The case could be restarted again in the future but this is most likely an end to the matter according to his solicitor who said the CPS rarely restart proceedings.

This goes to show that if the Police breach PACE then it can prove fatal since evidence could be excluded if it goes to court.

Thank you all for the advice.

Great result for your son, a further kick in the teeth for his victim.
Shameful.

How far does he have to escalate his behaviour before you stop using his autism as an excuse?

Attictroll · 24/02/2023 11:04

Is it the end of the matter for the victim...how are you seeking help for him going forward. Understand not wanting him to go to jail but what about stopping him...online harassment is horrible

GoodChat · 24/02/2023 11:09

I hope you're going to take appropriate steps to ensure his behavior is monitored moving forward OP.

toomuchlaundry · 24/02/2023 11:13

Do you agree with the restraining order?

taylorwhite883 · 24/02/2023 12:27

eatdrinkandbemerry · 24/02/2023 10:57

My son has autism and he would need an appropriate adult as he lacks capacity.
My daughter has autism and she wouldn't need an appropriate adult as she's got capacity.
You can't use autism as an excuse!

As my sons solicitor pointed out anyone that is autistic is technically mentally vulnerable and therefore need to have an appropriate adult present or else that can make evidence unreliable if the Police breach PACE.

He was provided with one when he was previously arrested but on this occasion he did not have one so I have no idea why they did not request one for him this time.

OP posts:
toomuchlaundry · 24/02/2023 12:33

Do you think he had breached his restraining order?

ReadersD1gest · 24/02/2023 12:40

taylorwhite883 · 24/02/2023 12:27

As my sons solicitor pointed out anyone that is autistic is technically mentally vulnerable and therefore need to have an appropriate adult present or else that can make evidence unreliable if the Police breach PACE.

He was provided with one when he was previously arrested but on this occasion he did not have one so I have no idea why they did not request one for him this time.

So he was provided with one last time. And then he did it again...
You're focusing on the wrong thing entirely.
Will your only issue should it happen again be whether he gets his appropriate adult, or will you give any thought at all to the woman/women he's harassed and attempt to stop him reoffending before it gets that far?

prh47bridge · 24/02/2023 12:58

ReadersD1gest · 24/02/2023 12:40

So he was provided with one last time. And then he did it again...
You're focusing on the wrong thing entirely.
Will your only issue should it happen again be whether he gets his appropriate adult, or will you give any thought at all to the woman/women he's harassed and attempt to stop him reoffending before it gets that far?

OP has said he confessed to something he didn't do because he thought he would get his computer back quickly if he did so.

OP has not disclosed the sex of the person to whom the restraining order relates.

But, like so many people on this thread, you assume that he must be guilty.

Napmum · 24/02/2023 12:58

You need to speak to a solicitor about this. It is unlikely that a confession would be dismissed, but they might take the fact that he needed a responsible adult into account. And take this understanding into account at sentencing.

But not all autistic people need a responsibile adult, so you'd have to prove that he did. Might be worth speaking to a doctor who knows him as to if they feel he would need a responsible adult.

ReadersD1gest · 24/02/2023 13:03

prh47bridge · 24/02/2023 12:58

OP has said he confessed to something he didn't do because he thought he would get his computer back quickly if he did so.

OP has not disclosed the sex of the person to whom the restraining order relates.

But, like so many people on this thread, you assume that he must be guilty.

I may have read it wrong, but this was the second time his computer was seized? How often does that happen to people who are just minding their own business?

Meandfour · 24/02/2023 13:04

taylorwhite883 · 17/01/2023 04:52

It was nothing to do with direct contact or anything in person the restraining order breach was to do with posting on a online forum that the other person is a member of and Police say this is indirect contact.

He had his PC seized to be sent off to be forensically analyzed and I don't know if they will find evidence of the breach.

I'm just concerned that my son did not understand the questions at the Police station which is why he may have refused a solicitor and became overwhelmed with the situation.

If he had been provided with an appropriate adult then they likely would have likely requested a solicitor for him (which has happened in the past).

This is why I am asking if under these circumstances if there is a good chance a S78 application by a solicitor would be succesful because he told me he has actually not breached the restraining order and that he made a false confession in the hope of getting his computer back right away so it doesn't have to be sent off to be forensically analyzed.

But he refused a solicitor and confessed.

monsteramunch · 24/02/2023 13:10

@taylorwhite883

What's your plan to stop him breaching the restraining order again and continuing to harass his victim?

Because while I understand you're pleased this hasn't gone further this time, your focus needs to be on preventing him repeating the criminal behaviour in future surely?

ReadersD1gest · 24/02/2023 13:13

What's his explanation for declining the solicitor, op?